Sen nochi bolsang isming bilen yaze, sen bilen bir tutushup baqayli.
ismingni yazalmisang, dimek senmu tayinliq ikensen. ozeng bilidighan ishlargha qayta-qayta oylap, 7 qetim oylighandin kiyin bir qetim pikir yurguzishke tirish. bolmisa sendek xitayperes ghalchilarni biz kop korgen. dawamliq mushu meydanni sen dellal qalaymiqan qilisen, ismingni sorisa ghippide yoqap ketisen. sening uyghurliqingmu natayinghu deymen.
Originally Posted by Qaraburan!
Englischini toluq chushenmigendikin bulmey turup baha bermeng. Victor Mair Uyghurlarni aryan digini yoq, eksinche Uyghur digen mongoliyedin kilip Tarim wadisidiki yerlik aryanlarni qirip tugetken yaki qoghliwetken dewatidu, Uyghurlar u mummilar ewlatliri emes shunga ularning medini-yadikarliqlirining warisliri diyishke bolmaydu dewatidu. Emdi biraz chushengendek turamsiz? Englischingizni dawamliq yahshilang. Chala molla adem olturuptu digen gep bar.
Englishche emes Uyghurche yezilghan nersinimu chushenmiseng yene bu yerde nime dep kapshiysen. Turdi doktur emes. uni hechkim doktur digen yeri yoq! Yazghanliring axmaqsiman nersiler. Bundaq bolishi sen Uyghurchinimu oqup texi chushenmiding. Ozeng Turdini tariqchi bolmay turup birnime yazmisun dep turup towendikidek yezish uchigha chiqqan axmaqliq. Logika digenning nime ikenligini uqqin bengwash. Towa ong bilen teturni, aq bilen qizilni periq etelmeydighan pizachilargha heyran men.
After reading the article with fresh eyes today, I decided to tone down some defensive wordings. I have not received any meaningful imput yet, so, here it is the version that goes out tomorrow night. You still have chance to throw in your two cents.
Turdi
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In an article about the Tarim Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that he is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, than finding the truth about those mummies. Basically, what he said amounts to white people showed up in the heart of Asia some four thousand years ago and spread civilization to the Asians and after three thousand years mysteriously disappeared or killed off by the ancestors of current population of the Tarim Basin. As an Uyghur from the Tarim region I want to point out in a layman’s terms a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.
First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not a part of China until 19th Century, certainly not during the lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese, even though there was limited contact with them after 138 AD through the famed Silk Road trade. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.
Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are forged by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may have passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. Then, have the people of the 11th century Kashgar moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar.
However, historical evidences support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kingdom centered in Turpan.
Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out (presumably by our ancestors). There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, ignoring the living ones, and leave out some crucial facts about the dead ones. For example, those mummies excavated in Tarim Basin look as diverse as today's living population of the area, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only imagine that they must have meant something in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. At least in the case of Tocharians, the Silk Road, which passed through their homeland, was in active use. Somebody would’ve taken notice if they were slaughtered or driven out.
It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. According to my limited knowledge, sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. According historical records, there were 36 kingdoms in Tarim Basin in the ancient times. For a presumably small population, it was a lot of kingdoms. I interpret it as lack of conquerors or wars among them. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them are related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.
Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy people lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?
Aries
Oh wait a minute, I am confused. Are you suggesting that the Uyghurs who lived in Kashgar around 8-11th century were different from ones who migrated from Mongolia? If the first one always lived in Tarim Basin, the second one who came from Mongolia must have been a different race that might not be Uyghurs, or at least culturally or linguistically not. That means Sultan Sutuk Boghrakhan united Turkic tribes, not exactly Uyghurs themselves in 11th century when he embraced Islam. Am I right?
People around Kashgar were under Karahan Dynasty of which Sultan Sutuk Bughrahan was a king around 11th Century. Apparenly, they considered themselves as Turk rather than Uyghur according to Qutatqu Bilik and they were Muslims. But people in Turpan-Kumul were living under Qoju Uyghur Hanlighi and were Bhudist. They converted to Islam much later, around 15-16th century. Since Uyghur is a Turkish tribe, the linguistic and ethnic affinity of the two communities allowed to gradually mix to form a unified new identity as modern Uyghurs.
One thing is clear though, populations of Tarim Basin, at least in the western part, were turkified long before the Uyghur immigration after the 840 AD. Those caucasian mummies must have melt into those Turki populations. Indeed, people from Kashgar and Hotan generally look more cacausian than people from Turpan and Qumul. Of course, no matter how we look, we are all one Uyghur today.
Aries
Yes, I knew that part of history. But I thought that the people under Karakhan and Itiqud Kingdoms belonged to the same ethnic group(by which I mean, Uyghurs), and the only difference was religion.
Agree with Turdi
Aries, as Turdi mentioned, Uyghur tribes were mostly inhabited around turfan and urumchi(beshbaliq). People in the south were mostly called themselves Turks until Soviets reviwed and reintruduced term "Uyghur". Both Mehmut Kashgari and Yusuf hajif called citizens of karahaniler as "Turk"s. By the same time, he mentioned Uyghur as the best Turkish(turkic) tribe. So this means modern Uyghur is the mixture of Turkic tribes.
I aggree with Turdi's poinnt about the southern population. People in the kashgar did not come from mongolia, As mehmut kashgari said Turks(uyghurs) originated from Turans, he said kashgar is his ancestrorial hommeland and city of Alpertunga. He never mentions immmigration, subjugation , killing of "arian" race .
If you read the history, Huns ruled east turkistan before BC. As chinnese stated, Both gokturks and Tiele tribes were originated from east Turkistan. Iranian's mentioned their eastern neighbor Turans(our forefathers). All these facts shows that modern Uyghurs turkic ancestors were in east turkistan at least for 2000 years. so it is a lie to claim Uyghur were came to ET in 9 the century. That only shows Mr. Mairs lack of knowledge about Uyghurs.
As for the color, modern genetics are showing huns, and ancientt turks were mixed race(white and asian) people. In the oghuzname,oghuzhan's wife's eyes were described as "as blue as sky". Mongolian's described Uyghur as "colored eyed people". we do not know what original turks look like(some believe white some asian), if we say turks were asians, Turks started to mix with whites at least 2000-2500 years ago.
Modern genetics are showing Uyghurs are about half europian(white) origin, occordinng to some commercial testing, some europians has direct match with some Uyghurs. But Mair claimed there is no direct link based on several mummy dna. Maybe he is doing so that to get more samples. or chinese basicly bribed him to lie.
As an Uyghur, I support Turdi's endovour to clear this up.
Aries
Thanks for the clarification. But I am still trying to figure out where those Southern Uyghurs came from if they didn't migrate from somewhere in Central Asia. Of course, they were not there in the beginning of human history. The history of human beings can be traced back 6 million years ago. The first human beings were found in African. After 50,000 years later, there were traces of human beings in Eurasia (which includes Central Asia), and after another 50,000 -100,000 years, human beings began to appear in Asia, Europe, Americas, and Australia. That means early human beings first of all went to Eurasia, then from there, they spread to the rest of the world. In this sense, Dr. Mair's strangers theory is completely wrong. Our ancesters didn't come from Europe, they actually went there.
Dolkun Kamberi
Dear Turdi,
Did you not contact Mr.Kamberi ?
After all he has been part of the archeological excavations
and once attempted to arrange the bringing of the mummies
to the states for exhibition purposes.
He once gave me excerpts from his papers on the mummies.
And also Mr.Kurban Veli would have enlightened you
since it is their domain.
By the way ,we are still trying to contact Uyghur scholars and historians
who may be a part of the prestigious biannual International Paper Historians Congress
to be held in Istanbul in 2010...
Last opportunity to promote Uyghur culture,arts and crafts and tourism was in Riyadh
Saudi Arabia at the International Seminar on Handicrafts and Toursim in Islamic Countries
in 2006.
I had contacted the head of the Uyghur Foundation in Istanbul and informed him about the importance of this international seminar for the Uyghurs,
he had boasted being one of the founding members of Rabitat ul Islam !!!!
and unfortunately the Uyghurs were not represented.....
This may show how considerate our people are ....to their own cultural heritage
despite the number of societies scattered around Europe,Turkey and the States...
take care.
oguzhan
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