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  1. #1
    Turdi Ghoja Guest

    Default Re: Dr. Mair's Take on Tarim Mummies

    Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
    Thanks,

    Turdi
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

    First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

    Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

    Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

    Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

    Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

    As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

  2. #2
    Unregistered Guest

    Default pikir

    Hormetlik Turdi Ghoja,

    Men <The Tarim Mummies> digen kitapni oqighan. Mening chushenginim boyiche u kitaptimu aptur hazirqi uyghurlarning shu Tarim Mummies liri bilen bolghan qandashlighini yoqqa chiqarghan emestek hem hazirqi uyghurlarning hazir Central Asiada yashawatqan ethnic turkumler ichide shu Mummies largha genetically olarak eng chong warisliq qilghanlar ikenligini yazghandek qiliwedi.

    Bilmidim yaki men hata oqiwaldimmu?



    Quote Originally Posted by Turdi Ghoja View Post
    Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
    Thanks,

    Turdi
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

    First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

    Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

    Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

    Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

    Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

    As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

  3. #3
    Qaraburan! Guest

    Exclamation Sap qan chüshenchisi, Omumiy menide eytilghan!

    Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

    Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!


    Quote Originally Posted by Turdi Ghoja View Post
    Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
    Thanks,

    Turdi
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

    First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

    Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

    Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

    Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

    Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

    As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

  4. #4
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    Engilis tilni bilmeidighan birsi ohximamsiz? shatiraqlap pikir berixning aldida engilis tilini bilidighan biresige makalini oqutup endin yizing. Kalladise Paqaq dimei.






    Quote Originally Posted by Qaraburan! View Post
    Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

    Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

  5. #5
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    Menmu Uyghur digen ajayip milletken dep qalimen. Bir maqalini oqup uni chushenmey turup pikir bayan qilidighanlar bizde xeli kop. Pizachilik sewyisi bar ademler doktor unwanliqlarni oqutimen deydighanlarmu xeli kop. Towendikini yazghan adem del mushundaqlarning tipik misalidur. Bundaqlarning aghizidin aldirap kelidighan gepler "Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini" din ibaret. Bundaqlar kotining echilip yurgenligini uqmay bashqilargha ishtan keymepsen dep aghrinip yuriydu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qaraburan! View Post
    Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

    Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

  6. #6
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    "First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century,"

    "I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times."

    Me Turding makalisida iqbir Uyghurning ghururigha tegidighan suz kurmidim! Exqe Turdi Uyghurni qughdap Dr. Mairning "Tarim is part of China from ancient time" digan gipige qarshi pakitlebilen suz kiptu, buning neri sizning ghururighizgha tiketi? siz belkim bir englisqini qala bilidighan edamkensiz yaki bir eyqi yaman edemkensiz Turding yazgha makalisini kurelmei mezmunisining burap Englis tilni bilmaidighan ademlege hata ang bermekqisiz. sizdek ademni xitayning ghalqisi deidu!!!!!

    Some advice to you: Read thoroughfully and think tiwce before make any comments. Don't make a fool of yourself!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Qaraburan! View Post
    Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

    Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

  7. #7
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    Turdi ependi doktur bolghanliki uqun uning degenlirini torghra dep bashkilarni "piziqi" din "piziqi" gha qikirip eyiplex logikidiki "nopuzga murajet kilix" (appeal to authority) hataliki bolidu. Pikirda bolupmu mana muxundak mawhom dunyadiki pikirda uni kimning kilganlikigha amas balki uni kandak kilghanlikka karax akilaniliktur. Sal igir bisik bolayli, buradarlar.

    Emeliyetta Turdi ependining bu yazmisini makala diyixka bolmaydu. U yazmisida Mair ning karaxliriga raddiya biriman nurgun yangiltak wa hissiyatka mayil pikirlarni kilgan. Asli bundak qong bir temini sal toxtilip yizix kirak idi. Towanda uning yazganliriga kiskiqa karap bakayli:

    "Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground."

    Uyghurlarning Ariyan irkiga tawalikini diguqilarning iqida Mair tunjisi amas, ham ahirkisimu amas. Bu uzndin biri talax tartix kiliniwatkan bir zil masila. Agar xundak bolup kalsa ham buni Tarimdin tepilgan wa tipilidigan jasatlar ispatlisa, buni nokul irkqilik diyix kirakmo? Uyghurlar Ariyan irkiga tawa bolsa nima yamni bar? Turdi apandi nima uqun buningdin xunqa urkiydikina? Huddi siz aytkandak, Mairmu ilmiy usul wa akliy hulasa yoli arkilik Uyghurlani Ariyanlarga qitiwatidu. Likin bu pakit (agar xundak diyix togra kalganda) yanila Uyghurlaning wa watinimiz xarkiy Turkistanning azaldin hitayning kolida bolup bakmiganlikini ispatlaxka dahli kilmayttigu? Uning ustiga bu hitay arhilogliri wa hokumiti ta hazirgiqa itirap kilmaywatkan bir pakit idighu? Dal hitaylar Mair watinimizdiki Uyghurlardin DNA siniki uqun algan kanni qigridin qikarmay, musadira kiliwalgan idigu? Dal hitaylar biz bilan Mairning milliti bolgan Girmanlar otturisidiki yirak “uruk tukkandarqiliktin” olgidak korkkan idigu? Amdi nima dap Mair bu baglinixni ispatliganliki uqun bu yarda ayipliniska duqar boluxi kirak?

    "There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west."

    Agar tarix hakikatan “tarixqi bolmigan” Turdi apandining diginidak bolsa, bizni ham ghrap ham xarkka qatkan gayat zor Yipak Yolidiki idiya almixix harikitini kandak quxinix mumkin? Toghra, mining kulikimga Uyghur bilan hitay tarixtin biri alaka kilmigan digan gap bakla hox yakidu, amma tarihta Uyghurlarning hitaylar bilan malom qaklik dairida alakida bolghanlikiga koz yumiwilix tarihka uyghunma? Siyasi kizginlik bilan ilmiy tatkikat bazida tokunixip kalidu. Bizgu bu yarda konglimizni hox ititp olturamiz, amma qing yarda tutuxsak hakningmu bir katar karaxliri bar.

    Yana “contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD” deyix Turdi apadining Uyghur madaniyiti bilan xitay madaniyiti otturisida taki 19-asirgiqa hiqkandak alaka bolup bakmigan digan pikrini inkar kilidu. Bu zit pikirghu?

    "Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today."

    Muxu gapning ozila bizdiki irqiy trkiplarning murakkaplikini quxandurup birixka yitip axidu. Undakta bu murakkaplikning yiltizi nima? Buni “witness” kilix bilanla quxandurup bargili bolamdu? Bu bir ilmiy pozitsiya wa mitodma?


    "That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point."

    Man Turdi apandining bu hokmiga koxiliman. Likin ix buninglik bilanla putmaydu. Buning uqun yana talay yillar arhilogiyilik takxurux paaliyiti watinimiz xarki turkistanda ilip birilixi kirak. Xunga, biz yana Mair we yana baxka arhiloglarning takxuruxliriga mohtajmiz.

    "Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers."

    Buni man baxka bir yardinmu muxundak korgan. Miningqa amaliyat Turdi apandi digandin sal parklinidu. Doktur Mair bir sohbatta Tarimdiki mumya adamlirini tatkik kilip kilip anga ahirida ozining tatkikatining natijisidin kongli yirim bolghanlikini iytkan. Yani Tarimning asli ahalisining ahiri birip Ariyanlardin bolup qikkanliki uning kutmigan yiridin qikkan, qunki bundak bolganda unig karixiqa bu Yawropa irkidikilarning ozlirining kengeymiqikini dengiz yolinining iqilixidin burunla baxlanganlikini bilduridikan. Mayli nimila bolmisun, Uyghurlarning itnik tarkiwining iniklinip qikixi bizning siyasiy dawayimizdiki intayin bir nazuk wa aqkuxluk bir masila bolupla kalmastin yana putkul ottura asiyadiki Uyghurlarni oz iqiga algan halklarning axu karanggu tarihini yorutuxtiki muhim bir nohtidur.

    Yigip iytkanda, man Turdi apandining oziga anqa tonuxluk bolmigan bu hildiki timilarda tihimu sogukkanlik bilan izdinixini umit kiliman.

  8. #8
    Unregistered Guest

    Unhappy

    Nurghun yillarning aldida, Dr Kahar Barat ning Harvard tiki yitekqi uztazi mundak bir jumle sozni kilghandek bolghan. Yeni "Jiang ze min" Harvard kelgen mezgilde, Mummies hekkide bolghan suallarge jawaban; tarihqilar siler mummies hekkide nime disenglar boliwiridu dep jawap bergenlikini dep, miyikida kulup ketken idi. Shu qagdiki bu kishining bu jiang zi minning sozige karita kilghan teleppuzi karap; men gherip ning Mummies hekkidiki tetkikati belkim hittaylarning kutken yiridin qikip kalghan ohshaydu dep perez kilghan idim. Undin qungkurrak yiri bolsa Karat Barat bu kishining kuzutushini inikrak bilishi mumkin.

  9. #9
    Unregistered Guest

    Default

    Would it be "bad" if modern-day Uyghurs were descendants of the Caucasian race?

    Chuck

  10. #10
    Unregistered Guest

    Default

    Englischini toluq chushenmigendikin bulmey turup baha bermeng. Victor Mair Uyghurlarni aryan digini yoq, eksinche Uyghur digen mongoliyedin kilip Tarim wadisidiki yerlik aryanlarni qirip tugetken yaki qoghliwetken dewatidu, Uyghurlar u mummilar ewlatliri emes shunga ularning medini-yadikarliqlirining warisliri diyishke bolmaydu dewatidu. Emdi biraz chushengendek turamsiz? Englischingizni dawamliq yahshilang. Chala molla adem olturuptu digen gep bar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Turdi ependi doktur bolghanliki uqun uning degenlirini torghra dep bashkilarni "piziqi" din "piziqi" gha qikirip eyiplex logikidiki "nopuzga murajet kilix" (appeal to authority) hataliki bolidu. Pikirda bolupmu mana muxundak mawhom dunyadiki pikirda uni kimning kilganlikigha amas balki uni kandak kilghanlikka karax akilaniliktur. Sal igir bisik bolayli, buradarlar.

    Emeliyetta Turdi ependining bu yazmisini makala diyixka bolmaydu. U yazmisida Mair ning karaxliriga raddiya biriman nurgun yangiltak wa hissiyatka mayil pikirlarni kilgan. Asli bundak qong bir temini sal toxtilip yizix kirak idi. Towanda uning yazganliriga kiskiqa karap bakayli:

    "Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground."

    Uyghurlarning Ariyan irkiga tawalikini diguqilarning iqida Mair tunjisi amas, ham ahirkisimu amas. Bu uzndin biri talax tartix kiliniwatkan bir zil masila. Agar xundak bolup kalsa ham buni Tarimdin tepilgan wa tipilidigan jasatlar ispatlisa, buni nokul irkqilik diyix kirakmo? Uyghurlar Ariyan irkiga tawa bolsa nima yamni bar? Turdi apandi nima uqun buningdin xunqa urkiydikina? Huddi siz aytkandak, Mairmu ilmiy usul wa akliy hulasa yoli arkilik Uyghurlani Ariyanlarga qitiwatidu. Likin bu pakit (agar xundak diyix togra kalganda) yanila Uyghurlaning wa watinimiz xarkiy Turkistanning azaldin hitayning kolida bolup bakmiganlikini ispatlaxka dahli kilmayttigu? Uning ustiga bu hitay arhilogliri wa hokumiti ta hazirgiqa itirap kilmaywatkan bir pakit idighu? Dal hitaylar Mair watinimizdiki Uyghurlardin DNA siniki uqun algan kanni qigridin qikarmay, musadira kiliwalgan idigu? Dal hitaylar biz bilan Mairning milliti bolgan Girmanlar otturisidiki yirak “uruk tukkandarqiliktin” olgidak korkkan idigu? Amdi nima dap Mair bu baglinixni ispatliganliki uqun bu yarda ayipliniska duqar boluxi kirak?

    "There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west."

    Agar tarix hakikatan “tarixqi bolmigan” Turdi apandining diginidak bolsa, bizni ham ghrap ham xarkka qatkan gayat zor Yipak Yolidiki idiya almixix harikitini kandak quxinix mumkin? Toghra, mining kulikimga Uyghur bilan hitay tarixtin biri alaka kilmigan digan gap bakla hox yakidu, amma tarihta Uyghurlarning hitaylar bilan malom qaklik dairida alakida bolghanlikiga koz yumiwilix tarihka uyghunma? Siyasi kizginlik bilan ilmiy tatkikat bazida tokunixip kalidu. Bizgu bu yarda konglimizni hox ititp olturamiz, amma qing yarda tutuxsak hakningmu bir katar karaxliri bar.

    Yana “contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD” deyix Turdi apadining Uyghur madaniyiti bilan xitay madaniyiti otturisida taki 19-asirgiqa hiqkandak alaka bolup bakmigan digan pikrini inkar kilidu. Bu zit pikirghu?

    "Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today."

    Muxu gapning ozila bizdiki irqiy trkiplarning murakkaplikini quxandurup birixka yitip axidu. Undakta bu murakkaplikning yiltizi nima? Buni “witness” kilix bilanla quxandurup bargili bolamdu? Bu bir ilmiy pozitsiya wa mitodma?


    "That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point."

    Man Turdi apandining bu hokmiga koxiliman. Likin ix buninglik bilanla putmaydu. Buning uqun yana talay yillar arhilogiyilik takxurux paaliyiti watinimiz xarki turkistanda ilip birilixi kirak. Xunga, biz yana Mair we yana baxka arhiloglarning takxuruxliriga mohtajmiz.

    "Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers."

    Buni man baxka bir yardinmu muxundak korgan. Miningqa amaliyat Turdi apandi digandin sal parklinidu. Doktur Mair bir sohbatta Tarimdiki mumya adamlirini tatkik kilip kilip anga ahirida ozining tatkikatining natijisidin kongli yirim bolghanlikini iytkan. Yani Tarimning asli ahalisining ahiri birip Ariyanlardin bolup qikkanliki uning kutmigan yiridin qikkan, qunki bundak bolganda unig karixiqa bu Yawropa irkidikilarning ozlirining kengeymiqikini dengiz yolinining iqilixidin burunla baxlanganlikini bilduridikan. Mayli nimila bolmisun, Uyghurlarning itnik tarkiwining iniklinip qikixi bizning siyasiy dawayimizdiki intayin bir nazuk wa aqkuxluk bir masila bolupla kalmastin yana putkul ottura asiyadiki Uyghurlarni oz iqiga algan halklarning axu karanggu tarihini yorutuxtiki muhim bir nohtidur.

    Yigip iytkanda, man Turdi apandining oziga anqa tonuxluk bolmigan bu hildiki timilarda tihimu sogukkanlik bilan izdinixini umit kiliman.

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