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Turdi Ghoja
07-06-08, 17:34
Since we are confined to the house by the heatwave, why not have a little discussion on something meaningful.

According to recent reports, the Chinese government is back to the dialogue table with the Tibetans. I understand Dalai Lama wants to have a dialogue to gain genuine autonomy for Tibet. He is a smart man, he must have his reasons. But, I could not understand the logic behind it. If China really wants to give genuine autonomy to Tibetans,why would it need a dialogue with Dalai Lama? Would'nt it serve China better to address the grievances of Tibetans and grant them genuine autonomy and bypass the Tibetan government in exile all together so that to make them irrelavant? This way, not only it could kill the international Tibetan movement (a movement without a cause is bound to die), but also could appear that it become good on its own terms rather than being pressured into it. In other words, if China really wants to grant real autonomy to Tibetans, why would'nt it keep the score for itself rather than giving it away to the Tibetan Government in Exile, its sworn enemy for many decades?

I think if the dialogue succeeds, in other words, if China decides to give genuine autonomy, the Tibetan movement outside of China will cease to exist. China could simply back out from the dialogue and gradually change things in Tibet while ignoring the Tibetan Movement outside. Once the things inside Tibet improves and Tibetans enjoy real autonomy, the Tibetan movement outside will run out of mission. This way, it would appear that China gave the autonomy, not that the Tibetan movement won it.

Does this makes any sense to you?

Unregistered
07-06-08, 17:56
If I am not an Uyghur, I may belive like many other people that China is working in a dialoge with Dalai Lama to solve the Tibet issue.
It is again a trick of Chinese government, and we will see that this dialog will have soon its end, probably on the same day with the last day of Beijing Olympic 2008. Who can do what ? It is the US who helped China a lot during the cold war against Soviets, so China became a strong power now and US can not much toy with China as in the past. What is this dialog with Dalai Lama for Chinese ? Nothing !



Since we are confined to the house by the heatwave, why not have a little discussion on something meaningful.

According to recent reports, the Chinese government is back to the dialogue table with the Tibetans. I understand Dalai Lama wants to have a dialogue to gain genuine autonomy for Tibet. He is a smart man, he must have his reasons. But, I could not understand the logic behind it. If China really wants to give genuine autonomy to Tibetans,why would it need a dialogue with Dalai Lama? Would'nt it serve China better to address the grievances of Tibetans and grant them genuine autonomy and bypass the Tibetan government in exile all together so that to make them irrelavant? This way, not only it could kill the international Tibetan movement (a movement without a cause is bound to die), but also could appear that it become good on its own terms rather than being pressured into it. In other words, if China really wants to grant real autonomy to Tibetans, why would'nt it keep the score for itself rather than giving it away to the Tibetan Government in Exile, its sworn enemy for many decades?

I think if the dialogue succeeds, in other words, if China decides to give genuine autonomy, the Tibetan movement outside of China will cease to exist. China could simply back out from the dialogue and gradually change things in Tibet while ignoring the Tibetan Movement outside. Once the things inside Tibet improves and Tibetans enjoy real autonomy, the Tibetan movement outside will run out of mission. This way, it would appear that China gave the autonomy, not that the Tibetan movement won it.

Does this makes any sense to you?

Yawaghaz
07-06-08, 21:12
I don't know much politics. In my opinion, China is just playing with time and try to calm down the international community before the Olympics. They don't want to give Tibetans the "genuine autonomy", if they give China would have to give Uyghurs too. And it is not possible with the current political system or there should be a substantial change in the government system. I guess China is waiting the death of the Dalai Lama and they think they can shrink the influence of Tibetan movement in the world. But after the Dalai Lama the new generation would end the "non-violent resistance" and China will become a second Yugoslavia.

Unregistered
07-06-08, 21:46
Probably Tibet's situation little bit different, China has to have dialog with Dalai Lama's government in exile. As for the reasons, they are pretty obvious.

As far as I know, the only region in China enjoying "genuine autonomy" is Hong Kong, China will grant Tibet some degree of autonomy at some point but under the condition that Tibet's autonomy will never pose any threat to China's territorial integrity, which means China will ensure that it has full control over Tibet at any time on any matter.

So the question is, will Tibet be granted the same degree of "autonomy" as Hong Kong or not?. To me, Tibetans will be very fortunate if they can gain 70% of what Hong Kong got.

As for Uyghurs, Uyghurs will be fortunate if they can get 50% of what Tibetans will get.

Unregistered
07-06-08, 22:58
As far as know, except for present Tibet, they want to get all Qinghai, part of Gansu and part of Siquan as an important part of their demand for "genuine autonomy". This already gave a threat to China's territorial integrity. If Dalai Lama couldn't get these pieces of land, his followers wouldn't support him any more. For China, they might agree to give some type of "autonomy", but when it comes to land, I have doubt about that.


Probably Tibet's situation little bit different, China has to have dialog with Dalai Lama's government in exile. As for the reasons, they are pretty obvious.

As far as I know, the only region in China enjoying "genuine autonomy" is Hong Kong, China will grant Tibet some degree of autonomy at some point but under the condition that Tibet's autonomy will never pose any threat to China's territorial integrity, which means China will ensure that it has full control over Tibet at any time on any matter.

So the question is, will Tibet be granted the same degree of "autonomy" as Hong Kong or not?. To me, Tibetans will be very fortunate if they can gain 70% of what Hong Kong got.

As for Uyghurs, Uyghurs will be fortunate if they can get 50% of what Tibetans will get.

Unregistered
08-06-08, 01:04
Dalai Lama has already cleared recently on Chinese media that he did not demand "Greater Tibet" which includes those areas you mentioned.


As far as know, except for present Tibet, they want to get all Qinghai, part of Gansu and part of Siquan as an important part of their demand for "genuine autonomy". This already gave a threat to China's territorial integrity. If Dalai Lama couldn't get these pieces of land, his followers wouldn't support him any more. For China, they might agree to give some type of "autonomy", but when it comes to land, I have doubt about that.

Unregistered
08-06-08, 13:41
China is negotiating with Tibetan government in exile about political future of Tibetans in Tibet (China).

as Turdi said China can give some form of genuine autonomy to Tibetans instead of having huge headache with exiled group. but it is not an issue here. fundamental issue here is about legitimacy. what I mean by that is who is the legitimate representative for Tibetan problem.
by having a dialog with Tibetans, China in great extent, accepted the reality, which is Tibetans with Dalai Lama is the legitimate representative of Tibetans, not the one enacted by Beijing.

so that is huge success on behalf of Tibetans exile group pushing the China to accept that reality

Unregistered
08-06-08, 13:48
If China grants Tibet an autonomy, is there any change in Uyghurs stuation. Because we are demanding "self-determination" and we don't have any dialogue with Chinese authorities so far. I'm curious to know, what will happen to us when Tibetans got their so called autonomy.

Turdi Ghoja
08-06-08, 14:40
The dialogue itself does not mean success, it does not mean China is genuinely considering giving in to Tibetan demands. As some one pointed out, China is good at games, or at least it thinks so. This dialogue thing is all about a game aimed at silencing the Tibetan movement until the Olympics end. When China is ready for granting genuine autonomy, it will not need the Tibetan movement outside. If a genuine autonomy is granted, the Tibetans inside Tibet could easily elect their representatives inside Tibet. But, China still has to deal with Dalai Lama even if it could afford not to deal with the Tibetan movement itself. But, we may not see that day any time soon.

In my opinion, the dialogue will not yield any substansial result. Tibetans may eventually be forced to resort to violence in their struggle and the world may justify it, convinced that the non-violent movement does not work in China. Perhaps, gaining worldwide acceptance for violent resistance will be the sole acchievement of the non-violent movement of the Tibetans if spoiling China's superpower dream does not count as one. Yes, Tibetans and Uyghur will spoil China's dream of becoming a superpower with international political influence. Because, China's treatment of Tibetans and Uyghurs will serve as a litmus test for the rest of the world as to how China deals with different peoples and nations. As long as the Tibetan and Uyghur problem remains unsolved, the rest of the world, particularly China's neighbors, will remain suspicious of China even when they engage in normal economic and political relationships. That in turn will limit China's ability to sway influence over others. Economic success does not necessarily translates into superpowerdom. Japan is a economic super power, but it has very little political influence around the world.

Turdi



China is negotiating with Tibetan government in exile about political future of Tibetans in Tibet (China).

as Turdi said China can give some form of genuine autonomy to Tibetans instead of having huge headache with exiled group. but it is not an issue here. fundamental issue here is about legitimacy. what I mean by that is who is the legitimate representative for Tibetan problem.
by having a dialog with Tibetans, China in great extent, accepted the reality, which is Tibetans with Dalai Lama is the legitimate representative of Tibetans, not the one enacted by Beijing.

so that is huge success on behalf of Tibetans exile group pushing the China to accept that reality

Unregistered
08-06-08, 15:30
Dialog is now associated with Olympics in Beijing.
in fact if we refresh our mind then not difficult to figure out that Tibetan-Chinese Dialog has started long before Olympics. this is sixth round dialog and seventh is under way.

Huge international pressure has already invalidated Chinese position of discrediting dalai Lama and his exile cabinet.
also Tibetans inside Tibet has strong spiritual and moral ties with Dalai Lama.
dont underestimate domestic pressure from Chinese intellectuals on to CCP for solving Tibetan problem.

at the end it is a legitimacy issue that forces Chinese to make certain compromise.
Chinese fear is not to give autonomy for Tibet. main concern is what will be the next?
Tibetan Autonomy is not some thing that binds Chinese and Tibetans, also there will be international players and signatories on final draft of agreement. therefore international pressure is going to still there if China dishonors their agreement.

make Tibet weapon free zone, limit the Chinese settlers, control Tibetan natural and cultural resources, restore their own Buddhist tradition and national identity etc...
all of that pose great threat to Chinese expansionism at the end.

Dalai Lama is playing smart and cheap politics to gain independence.
like Kosovo, initial years or decade could be devoted to restoring Tibetan identity under genuine Autonomy agreement with Chinese. then China will be more and more loosen up at certain extent, and Tibetans will be more and more ready for claiming independence from China. it is a step by step process.


how about Uyghurs?

can we make our cause a international embarrassment to China as Tibetans did?
can we play a smart politics by considering international dimension of Uyghur issue?
where is intellectuals from Uyghurs?
can they be part of this process or keep themself busy with their own personal schedules?

it is the national issue and all parties should be involved to make final decision.
yet Uyghurs do not have any political program on how to resolve this issue?

self determination is empty slogan unless big powers support it with militarily.
as we seen it in Kosovo crises, China is going to be final country to have a say on self determination.

I think Uyghurs have lot of things to do before coming to this process.








The dialogue itself does not mean success, it does not mean China is genuinely considering giving in to Tibetan demands. As some one pointed out, China is good at games, or at least it thinks so. This dialogue thing is all about a game aimed at silencing the Tibetan movement until the Olympics end. When China is ready for granting genuine autonomy, it will not need the Tibetan movement outside. If a genuine autonomy is granted, the Tibetans inside Tibet could easily elect their representatives inside Tibet. But, China still has to deal with Dalai Lama even if it could afford not to deal with the Tibetan movement itself. But, we may not see that day any time soon.

In my opinion, the dialogue will not yield any substansial result. Tibetans may eventually be forced to resort to violence in their struggle and the world may justify it, convinced that the non-violent movement does not work in China. Perhaps, gaining worldwide acceptance for violent resistance will be the sole acchievement of the non-violent movement of the Tibetans if spoiling China's superpower dream does not count as one. Yes, Tibetans and Uyghur will spoil China's dream of becoming a superpower with international political influence. Because, China's treatment of Tibetans and Uyghurs will serve as a litmus test for the rest of the world as to how China deals with different peoples and nations. As long as the Tibetan and Uyghur problem remains unsolved, the rest of the world, particularly China's neighbors, will remain suspicious of China even when they engage in normal economic and political relationships. That in turn will limit China's ability to sway influence over others. Economic success does not necessarily translates into superpowerdom. Japan is a economic super power, but it has very little political influence around the world.

Turdi

Unregistered
08-06-08, 18:03
I don't know much politics. In my opinion, China is just playing with time and try to calm down the international community before the Olympics. They don't want to give Tibetans the "genuine autonomy", if they give China would have to give Uyghurs too.

all depend on Uyghurs power man. "china have to give uyghurs too", but if you want and you can fight for that.

even "genuine autonomy", it is not for free in chinese system. so you have to fight for "genuine autonomy" and get it. it is not posible for free get it...

Unregistered
08-06-08, 20:04
you are right. after Tibetans, some assume that it will be automatically comes to Uyghurs. nonsense.
no pain no gain. without fighting for it, you get nothing, but getting worst day by day



all depend on Uyghurs power man. "china have to give uyghurs too", but if you want and you can fight for that.

even "genuine autonomy", it is not for free in chinese system. so you have to fight for "genuine autonomy" and get it. it is not posible for free get it...

Unregistered
10-06-08, 17:30
Mr. Ghoja,

China's meetings with a Tibetan delegation are just to silence the regime's critics. They can point to the talks and say "see, we are talking but they do not have realistic expectations." The two sticking points (I have read) are that Tibet has always been historically China and the geographical concerns.

The CCP will never willingly give up power and even though these 'talks' will never produce any substantial outcome, the Dalai Lama must still send his representatives. The talks have been ongoing for years and you probably know someone that has participated.

As far as the goal of 'regional autonomy', that has to be a stepping stone on the path to freedom, at least that is how the CCP sees it and they can't let that happen. Others, including Uyghurs, will want it as well and if that erodes CCP power over the daily life of its subjects, Party members might be in a lot of trouble.

As far as Tibetans getting concessions from the thugs - there have been people working on pushing the Tibetan issue with a multifaceted campaign for years. Part of the effort has been to develop information pipelines to quickly call attention to events and gain media attention. Another part of that effort is to communicate directly with English/American speaking people and develop strategies for non-violent political activism.

It was a very quiet Memorial Day weekend for me.

Unregistered
11-06-08, 17:36
Well, I think you are downplaying the significance of economic success. Economics is always, and has always been the center of politics.

Japan doesn’t have much political influence around world largely because it chooses not to. There is a fundamental difference between not being able to do something and deliberately choosing not to. We all know what happened to Japan during the Second World War, and the US’s effort to rebuild the country into what we called “a peaceful nation.” Why do you think the US troops are permanently stationed in Japan/Okinawa? Protecting? ( who from who?)

I think economic power is anything and everything. The reason why China has gained so much influence in international arena in last 10 years is because of its booming economy. We must have to admit that almost every single country is eager to do business with China. It is all about trade and national interest. Human rights card comes to the table only when you have a bigger game coming into play, which is often existential, not humane.

I really don’t think China worries too much about Tibetan movement in exile, but what it does concern about is the international support or pressure as a result. You know, Beijing resents to lose face. But again, criticism remains criticism as long as priorities are met. And you know exactly what I am talking about.















The dialogue itself does not mean success, it does not mean China is genuinely considering giving in to Tibetan demands. As some one pointed out, China is good at games, or at least it thinks so. This dialogue thing is all about a game aimed at silencing the Tibetan movement until the Olympics end. When China is ready for granting genuine autonomy, it will not need the Tibetan movement outside. If a genuine autonomy is granted, the Tibetans inside Tibet could easily elect their representatives inside Tibet. But, China still has to deal with Dalai Lama even if it could afford not to deal with the Tibetan movement itself. But, we may not see that day any time soon.

In my opinion, the dialogue will not yield any substansial result. Tibetans may eventually be forced to resort to violence in their struggle and the world may justify it, convinced that the non-violent movement does not work in China. Perhaps, gaining worldwide acceptance for violent resistance will be the sole acchievement of the non-violent movement of the Tibetans if spoiling China's superpower dream does not count as one. Yes, Tibetans and Uyghur will spoil China's dream of becoming a superpower with international political influence. Because, China's treatment of Tibetans and Uyghurs will serve as a litmus test for the rest of the world as to how China deals with different peoples and nations. As long as the Tibetan and Uyghur problem remains unsolved, the rest of the world, particularly China's neighbors, will remain suspicious of China even when they engage in normal economic and political relationships. That in turn will limit China's ability to sway influence over others. Economic success does not necessarily translates into superpowerdom. Japan is a economic super power, but it has very little political influence around the world.

Turdi

Unregistered
15-06-08, 19:47
http://news.creaders.net/headline/newsViewer.php?nid=347276&id=806955&dcid=2

Unregistered
18-06-08, 12:58
this thread shows about politically unsavvy the uyghurs are. the last thing the chinese government is afraid of is exile tibetans going voilent. the reason that the tibetan movement has its influence today is its nonvoilent approach. learn history. "China will become a second Yugoslavia", what a dumb head!

I don't know much politics. In my opinion, China is just playing with time and try to calm down the international community before the Olympics. They don't want to give Tibetans the "genuine autonomy", if they give China would have to give Uyghurs too. And it is not possible with the current political system or there should be a substantial change in the government system. I guess China is waiting the death of the Dalai Lama and they think they can shrink the influence of Tibetan movement in the world. But after the Dalai Lama the new generation would end the "non-violent resistance" and China will become a second Yugoslavia.

Unregistered
18-06-08, 17:17
Any political slogan will have its growing time and decay time. So called "non-violent" resistance has worked very well for Indians and South Africans against Biritish. Because they were majority in their homeland and there were noway for the Biritish to erode their ethnic identity at least. Now here it comes to the question, is the "genuine autonomy" still needed for the Tibetans after they lost their ethnic and cultural identity. As Tibetan Youth Congress (which represents the largest Tibetan movement in exile) clearly said if they couldn't solve the Tibetan problem in some time period by peaceful means they will have to choose violent resistance as they did in 1960s.

Before you comment others message, please be aware that, this is an open forum, and non of these posts can represent any general Uyghur public opinion. It is only the opinion of individuals. Before you call the entire Uyghurs "politically unsavvy", think twice. Otherwise, you will be unsavvy of what the consequences are.



this thread shows about politically unsavvy the uyghurs are. the last thing the chinese government is afraid of is exile tibetans going voilent. the reason that the tibetan movement has its influence today is its nonvoilent approach. learn history. "China will become a second Yugoslavia", what a dumb head!

Unregistered
20-06-08, 13:26
Tibetans tried voilence back in the 1950s at the weakest moment of China and failed. Why do you think they can succeed today? a few million tibetans against a nation of 1.3billion, what Yougoslavia was the guy talking about? Any open use of voilence will cause tibetans to lose their base in India. Do you think US will take them in?

Any political slogan will have its growing time and decay time. So called "non-violent" resistance has worked very well for Indians and South Africans against Biritish. Because they were majority in their homeland and there were noway for the Biritish to erode their ethnic identity at least. Now here it comes to the question, is the "genuine autonomy" still needed for the Tibetans after they lost their ethnic and cultural identity. As Tibetan Youth Congress (which represents the largest Tibetan movement in exile) clearly said if they couldn't solve the Tibetan problem in some time period by peaceful means they will have to choose violent resistance as they did in 1960s.

Before you comment others message, please be aware that, this is an open forum, and non of these posts can represent any general Uyghur public opinion. It is only the opinion of individuals. Before you call the entire Uyghurs "politically unsavvy", think twice. Otherwise, you will be unsavvy of what the consequences are.

Unregistered
20-06-08, 16:34
do not underestimate the the public opinion in the western democracies. if tibetans resort to violence, they may not be able to liberate themselves, but they can surely cause a lot of problem and derail china's economic boom. the world is already at tibet side, if china uses excess force, the world could use enonomical and political means tp punish china even if a outright military intervention not very likely. if china continues to demonstrate that it can do whatever it want as long as she is capable regardless world opinion, the world will start to worry about a potential superpower china and will start do something to prevent china from further develop. once china's fortunes turn sour, everybody will fleed from its side faster than light. tibet could become a much bigger problem.


Tibetans tried voilence back in the 1950s at the weakest moment of China and failed. Why do you think they can succeed today? a few million tibetans against a nation of 1.3billion, what Yougoslavia was the guy talking about? Any open use of voilence will cause tibetans to lose their base in India. Do you think US will take them in?

Unregistered
21-06-08, 12:18
If you want to make Tibetan struggle for their freedom as against 1.3 billion Chinese, you would make HUGE mistake. Not all Chinese support current Chinese policy against Tibetans and Uyghurs. Tibetans have the freedom to chose what method they use for their struggle according to different geopolitical environment. If China still blackmail Tibetans with so called dialogue and continue transport more Chinese to Tibetan areas, Tibetans and including all international community would loose their patience. What China would see a harsher consequence and that is what I mean by former Yuguslavia.


Tibetans tried voilence back in the 1950s at the weakest moment of China and failed. Why do you think they can succeed today? a few million tibetans against a nation of 1.3billion, what Yougoslavia was the guy talking about? Any open use of voilence will cause tibetans to lose their base in India. Do you think US will take them in?

Unregistered
21-06-08, 13:33
The first thing the Chinese government is afraid of is an non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan and the one thing they want the most is a non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan. If something happens and they are unable to control it with PLA, PSB, XPCC, MSS, etc. then it is only a matter of time until they collapse- the weakness will make them a prime target. On the other hand, if they can control it, it only weakens the opposition and strengthens their hand and justifies any and all measures to put it down.

If there is violence, all the people will pay a heavy price. There are different strategies that do not involve violence that the Chinese government also hates because it slowly erodes their power. Even though the face of the CCP is Chinese, that doesn't mean that all the Chinese people are to blame, it is the CCP.
For instance, weaken the credibility of the CCP enough and it will open the eyes of people that used to trust them and then it will gain momentum. When those folks reevaluate what they have been told - are their materials for them to read and consider?

just a thought or two...

Unregistered
21-06-08, 14:21
The chinese might have the economy of 21st century, but they have the mentalility of the 19th century, especially when it comes to race and ethnicity. the western model does not work in china.


The first thing the Chinese government is afraid of is an non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan and the one thing they want the most is a non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan. If something happens and they are unable to control it with PLA, PSB, XPCC, MSS, etc. then it is only a matter of time until they collapse- the weakness will make them a prime target. On the other hand, if they can control it, it only weakens the opposition and strengthens their hand and justifies any and all measures to put it down.

If there is violence, all the people will pay a heavy price. There are different strategies that do not involve violence that the Chinese government also hates because it slowly erodes their power. Even though the face of the CCP is Chinese, that doesn't mean that all the Chinese people are to blame, it is the CCP.
For instance, weaken the credibility of the CCP enough and it will open the eyes of people that used to trust them and then it will gain momentum. When those folks reevaluate what they have been told - are their materials for them to read and consider?

just a thought or two...

Unregistered
24-06-08, 11:49
Look at what happened in Chechnya. I didn't see the west lift a finger. Don't count on it. Anyone thinks that resorting to voilence against Chinese civilian will result in the weakening of CCP in China is making a fool out of themselves. You are apparently not paying attention to what happened during the past few months. Dalai Lama's mid-of-way approach is the only realistic solution if it will ever have a chance.


The first thing the Chinese government is afraid of is an non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan and the one thing they want the most is a non-State sponsored incident in Eastern Turkestan. If something happens and they are unable to control it with PLA, PSB, XPCC, MSS, etc. then it is only a matter of time until they collapse- the weakness will make them a prime target. On the other hand, if they can control it, it only weakens the opposition and strengthens their hand and justifies any and all measures to put it down.

If there is violence, all the people will pay a heavy price. There are different strategies that do not involve violence that the Chinese government also hates because it slowly erodes their power. Even though the face of the CCP is Chinese, that doesn't mean that all the Chinese people are to blame, it is the CCP.
For instance, weaken the credibility of the CCP enough and it will open the eyes of people that used to trust them and then it will gain momentum. When those folks reevaluate what they have been told - are their materials for them to read and consider?

just a thought or two...

Unregistered
24-06-08, 18:59
I agree that the application of violence against the current regime is nonsense, but to sit back and wait for something to happen (as opposed to planning and executing a coherent plan) is also silly.

What is the plan and what can American friends do to help?