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Unregistered
10-03-08, 20:31
There are some interesting discussion on the recent article "Dispatches from China's Wild West" on the website where the original article is posted. I am pasting responses from Uyghurs to a Chinese guy named Danny who claimed his parents moved to Urumchi 40 years ago and he was born and raised there. His as usual denies that there is oppression there and claims that Uyghurs receive preferencial treatment in college entrance exams and employement. The following might be helpful if some one picks a web fight with the Chinese anywhere on the internet.
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Memet Uyghur's responce:

Danny, I am an Uyghur, and was born in Urumchi as well. My parents and grandparents were also born and liven in Urumchi. It is funny you said that Uyghurs would be offended to be catagorized as a separate people from the Chinese. How would you know that? Since when have "your Uyghur classmates" been allowed to speak their minds? By the way, growing up in Urumchi, how many Uyghurs do you know and how many Uyghur friends do you have? As I remember, Urumchi is one of the most ethnically segregated cities on the planet. Have you seen any Uyghurs at any Chinese weddings, funeral or other ceremonies and vice-versa? For your information, all the Uyghurs I know, quite a few, you can count on, regard Uyghurs and Chinese as separate concepts. I would not blame you if you did not know. A lot of things you do not know about us just like the rest of the Chinase people living in our land. It would be safe bet that you know much more about the Americans than the Uyghurs. For the Chinese, we simply do not exist, if we say we do, we would end up in jail. But, as long as we keep singing and dancing and smilling as if everything were ok, the we would be left alone. If give away the slightest sign that we also actually have families to feed, minds to think, emotions to feel, and ability to judge what is fair and not, that would spell doom for us. You do not know what people do and say to survive. To have a remote sense of what it would feel like, you may imagine this:you are apparently a well-educated person, imagine if you could not get employment appropriate for your skills because you are not white, imagine if the hiring people tell you that they would hire only the whites because they are themselves are white. And we talking about a discrimination in a foreign country for you, but I am talking about discrimination in my homeland by people who migrated to the land from other places.
Before you compare our language situation to the spanish people in US, you have bear in mind that Uyghurs are living in their own land for thousands of years using their own unique language and written alphabet, and they did not invite your parents or the other Chinese to their land. The spanish people in US at the other hand are immigrants. Immigrants naturally have to speak the language of the land just as you and me do. But in our land, the immigrants are imposing their language on us. I do not think the spanish immigrants imposing spanish on the American people. By the way, how may Uyghur words do you know other than the usual "hosh" and "yakshimusiz"?
You said Uyghurs are given preferencial treatment in employment. You should be ashamed of yourself to say such a lie. It is true that the law signed when we had an army capable of fighting then the weak red army in 50's that the governor and some top government positions have to be Uyghur. Therefore, the governor is always an Uyghur, so are some other top government positions, but we also know that they do not have real authority and everything is determined by the party secretary who is always a chinese. Uyghur employees in government inistitutions are tylically less than 5% in Urumchi and about 10% in local governments. I used to work for a provencial government department with 800 employees among which only 32 were Uyghurs. All the Uyghurs except a driver had college degree while 70-80% of the Chinese employees were at best high school gratuates.
You talked about the Universities. Most Uyghurs can go to only the 5 or so Universities in Xinjiang, while your people can go any University in China. Even so, there are more Chinese students in those 5 Universities than the Uyghurs even though the population of Uyghurs in Xinjiang are higher than the Chinese. I am sure you are capable of doing the math, afterall you are a Chinese, from the inteligent and not-lazy stock.
People go to college to have a better job and better life. That is what motivate them to study. If you know that your chance of putting what you learned to good use and get a good job after graduate is slim because you are not white, I am sure you would be asking yourself if it is worth it try that hard.
The 20th Century brought many people from the relatively backward societies to the modernity. This included the Chinese who went through a remarkable journey of losing the funny looking pony tails, and mostly uneducated dirty looking backward peasants and becoming a modern nation claiming its place in the 21th Century. Some people in Asia, Africa and other part of the world were living in jungles without clothes at the beginning of the 20th Century, but today they are more modern than the Uyghurs, Tibetans and other minorities in China who had long history of civilizations and written languages. The minorities are the only ones left out of the progress because they fell victim for the Chinese national pride hurt by the foreigners, the others. Since the Chinese could not touch the others, they took it on the other outsiders they can tough and abuse, the minorities in China. It is sort of like a psychopath behavior of a father who lacks self-esteem and try to boost it by abusing his own children.
Before you try to accuse us that we are not capable of doing things, try to stay the hell out of our land and see how we manage it ourselves. Look it the Kazakhs in Xinjiang and Kazakhstan. They are like people from different plannet. The Kazakhs in Kazakhstan are running a modern and prosperous country while their kins in China are little different than who they were 100 years ago, poor, uneducated nomads who still largely live on the moutains. The Kazakhs in either side of the border were same 100 years ago, today they are different thanks to the inteligent, enlightened, educated and hard-working Chinese.
In short, what China is doing in Xinjiang, which by the way is called East Turkistan in my own language and it is a crime to call it that name today, is the worst form of colonialism. Only in China colonialism still exists today thanks to enlightened and superior race of Chinese. Just to verify my credentials as an Uyghur from East Turkistan, I would like to add a few words in Chinese:
Hanzuren shi zui meiyo xiuyangda minzu.

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Free Uyghur's responce:

Memet said most of what I want to say, but I like to add a few words here from an Uyghur perspective as well.
Danny, before you compare Uyghurs to the spanish in US, you have to remember one thing, US is a immigrant country where every one came here volunteerily except the black people and adopt the common language of the land, English. But, China is not an immigrant country, they Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongols and other minorities lived where they live now thousands of years forming different ethnic identity, diffent language and culture. They did not come to China, but China came to them and forcing their language and culture on them. I am suprised a inteligent person like you could not tell the difference.
You said Uyghurs are admitted to Universities easier than the Chinese counterparts. Its is just plain BS. Before come to this point, first let's look at the middle & high school situation. In a typical county with 300K population in Xinjiang, there is only one high school with roughly 600-1000 students in Uyghur areas. But, in Chinese areas, there are more school with at least 5 times more students, not to mention the much better school conditions. For example, Yarkent (Shache) county is the biggest county in Xinjiang with more than half a million people most of whom are Uyghurs, but there is only one Uyghur high school!!!! Let's forget the rural areas for while and focus on Urumchi, there are just 3 Uyghur high schools in the entire city with 300,000 Uyghur population. For you information, they are 5th High, 14th High and 17th High Schools. They each accomidate just several hundred middle and high school students. Now let's talk about what study at school: Chinese history, story of Wang or Zhang instead of Memet and Semet, which we have little to relate with nor are interested in or care about; Chinese geography, story of a remote land that we couldn't care less; Chinese literature and poerty, who cares!! But, we have to for a lousy test score.
Since you are a inteligent person, imagine a hypothetical scenario: classes are offered in Uyghur for the Chinese since they immigrated there from somewhere else. Ok, I'll take it back, why would you settle for such a lousy deal while you are the one holding the gun, right? Ok, let's imagine a different scenario: classes are offerend in Chinese for every one including the Uyghurs, but the contents are local, which means, learning the history and geography of the land that provides shelter, water and bread for you and me. That is every learn the history and geographu of Xinjiang, story of Memet and Semet rather than Wang and Zhang. That would only be fair, your language my content, right? Only then we could have anything close to a fair score comparison. Until then stop spinning your weightless lies about preferencial treatment!!!! If you do not like us, you are welcome to go back wherever your parents came from. I asked around, nobody sent invitation to your parents.
Have a good day and good life in a foreign land. I could only wish that I could enjoy one tenth of what you enjoy here in my own traditional home land.

Unregistered
11-03-08, 00:42
i am a uyghur,I agree with your opinions. I lived in canada, I will come back xinjiang of china, I hope become your friend, my mailbox: uyghur111@163.com ,I hope that I can receive your writes.
Best wishes!
mariam

Unregistered
11-03-08, 10:00
First learn to write in paragraphs.

Then learn how to write a structured argumentative essay, which includes thesis, main points, elaboration and examples.

No elaboration, detailed examples given. No citation or statistics quoted. A sheer obsession of appealing to emotion, biogtry and sweeping generalisation and argument unsupported.

You people need to put in more efforts.

Unregistered
11-03-08, 12:37
[QUOTE=Unregistered;33441]There are some interesting discussion on the recent article "Dispatches from China's Wild West" on the website where the original article is posted. I am pasting responses from Uyghurs to a Chinese guy named Danny who claimed his parents moved to Urumchi 40 years ago and he was born and raised there. His as usual denies that there is oppression there and claims that Uyghurs receive preferencial treatment in college entrance exams and employement. The following might be helpful if some one picks a web fight with the Chinese anywhere on the internet.
####

kick out this cockroach out of cockroach place.

Unregistered
11-03-08, 12:38
[QUOTE=Unregistered;33441]There are some interesting discussion on the recent article "Dispatches from China's Wild West" on the website where the original article is posted. I am pasting responses from Uyghurs to a Chinese guy named Danny who claimed his parents moved to Urumchi 40 years ago and he was born and raised there. His as usual denies that there is oppression there and claims that Uyghurs receive preferencial treatment in college entrance exams and employement. The following might be helpful if some one picks a web fight with the Chinese anywhere on the internet.
####

kick out this cockroach out to cockroach place.

kick out this cockroach out to cockroach place.

Unregistered
11-03-08, 14:23
[QUOTE=Unregistered;33480]First learn to write in paragraphs.

Then learn how to write a structured argumentative essay, which includes thesis, main points, elaboration and examples.

No elaboration, detailed examples given. No citation or statistics quoted. A sheer obsession of appealing to emotion, biogtry and sweeping generalisation and argument unsupported.

You people need to put in more efforts.



will you give it a break? many people dont follow the donts and comas all the time,
these guys are talking about what they felt...not everyone is a good writer.
but they are very good observers and thinkers...my respects to them.

Unregistered
11-03-08, 19:09
I thought I was writing on a messageboard, not writing an assay for the GMAT or LSAT. I am sure you'be really happy if I would shut up and wait until I get a degree in writing major from Havard. Obviously, you took English 101, wowwwwwwww!!! Good for you, xiao Wang or Tang. Whatever you say, boss, you are the Chinese after all, who knows the best!!!
Free Uyghur


First learn to write in paragraphs.

Then learn how to write a structured argumentative essay, which includes thesis, main points, elaboration and examples.

No elaboration, detailed examples given. No citation or statistics quoted. A sheer obsession of appealing to emotion, biogtry and sweeping generalisation and argument unsupported.

You people need to put in more efforts.

Unregistered
13-03-08, 22:32
The following responce was posted by a Chinese named Danny on the Slate.com website where original article was posted.
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A few ethnic Uyghurs pose some serious and seemingly plausible accusations in response to my previous post. And again, I would say these allegations are invariably based on their ridiculous "against china no matter what" sort of mindset. And whatever they claim simply not well supported and based on their wild imaginations and sort of "against china no matter what" mentality. I am going to examine each of their point with FACTS.


Education:
some guy alleged that there were only three Uyghur secondary schools in Urumqi. But I happened to have this official document from Urumqi Bureau of Education on hand which provides that, among 96 government-funded secondary schools under Urumqi Bureau of Education's administration, 25 schools are either Uyghur or Uighur-Han combined schools., namely No.2, 3,5, Urumqi High, 16, Experimental, 21,23, 29,30,31,37,38,43,46,47,62,65,67,73,Mid Sch att to XJU, Mid Sch att to XNU, Badaowan Sch, Dabancheng Uyghur Sch, Anningqu Uyghur Sch. There are also around 10 Kazakh schools. You may call respective schools or the government to verify what i am saying. Considering the percentage of the Uyghur population in Urumqi, don't you think Uyghurs are over-represented?

As for the curriculum, I simply cannot see anything wrong with letting Uyghur students to learn things about China as they are part of the country for over 200 years. And even if learning things about china was wrong, there is nothing wrong with learning Maths and Physics, Biology and so on. Hey, tell me is there even a single Uyghur student who can compete with Hans in any of these subjects that have nothing to do with China? Ironically, I do remember a few Uyghur students who were so fond of Chinese language so much so that they scored much higher than us. And in addition, as few students actually choose to study arts, for the majority, only six subjects are taken into account when it comes to university admission, namely Chinese, English(Uyghur Language for Uyghur students), Maths, Physics, Chemistry, and Biology. Considering the mere practical use of Chinese language in the region, abandoning the Chinese doesn't seems to be a good idea. There is nothing else on the list that has anything to do with "China". So what else could you possibly ask the government to do???

Language

Your argument about the Uyghur language is a sheer lie. There wasn't any originally well-developed written form of Uyghur language. The Uyghur script you used today was borrowed from the Arabs. There isn't anything original in the written script except for some adoptions.

Don't ever talk about things as if you knew

I find it another feature of Uyghurs like you, pretending as if you knew a lot but in fact you know nothing. There was an earlier post about Tuvans and you were trying to "correct" others when you actually knew nothing at all, which proves your ignorance. Talk about Tuvans' nonexistence as if you knew huh? How phony that is. Please go there first and then talk with evidence. Do i have to mention again your lies about there being only three Uyghur schools?

Kazakhstan

Satirically, look what happened to those Kazakhs in the past few decades. Their traditional writing system is completely gone. And they were forced to adopt a new script. Whereas within the Chinese side, everything remains the way they were, including the language. And have you ever thought about how many times this country in the middle of nowhere get a mention in the world? When their workers built oil pipes for their Chinese boss? or when people watching Borat asking wondering what the K word is? Tell me why would this freaky "Borat Sagdiyev" happened to be Kazakhstani, not Australian, Chinese, Japanese or even Vietnamese? I am not saying anything in Borat is true but why would the ideal place you are talking about the target of Sacha Cohen's satire if it were truly this prosperous? To make a comparison, when is the last time you see China's image in the Hollywood movies? Isn't it the ultra-modern city in Ultraviolet or Mission Impossible 3?


Your mentality is simply this, when things are kept the way they were, you accuse the Chinese government for not caring about them. And where new things or new developments are introduced, large amount of money are invested, you accuse instead for jeopardizing the traditions, religion or whatever things you may name them. Please do a simple maths, how much money was spent in Xinjiang and how much tax did the government levied from the region? The blanks are unexceptionally filled by money from the rich eastern provinces. Do people in the eastern provinces have a single Uyghur relative? Is there anything fair to the Han Chinese in this imposed fill-the-blanks-with-your-money deal? Ask your grandpa/grandma where did he/she live decades ago when there were few Hans, some hut made of dirt or mud?(obviously there are people especially least privileged Uyghurs who still live in a condition like that, but i am talking about general living standard is in fact improving dramatically) and did he/she knew there was something in the world called running water before the Han Chinese came and built the first water reservoir? Or would they even had that in mind that they need running water and ever thought about building that system? It seems to me that Uyghur is one of the ethnic groups least likely to take a regular bath and most likely to have strong body odor. And why is that?


In a two-hundred-year time span, take a look what your hilarious "golden old days" was like when the Nationalist government was weak, when there were few Han Chinese, and at the period around the incident when a few Uyghurs occupied a town declared "independence", which lasted maybe three days. An extract from June 10, 1934 Washington Post, "There is probably no more wild primitive and remote spot on the face of the globe than Sinkiang....."(http://china.notspecial.org/blogimages/sheldrake_washpost.gif) And did you notice, people call it Chinese Turkestan? If you ever understand a bit about history, you'd know people called it Chinese Turkestan" much more often than "East Turkestan". And this is simply a reflection of the fact that China maintained undisrupted sovereign control over the region for hundreds of years. Now tell me, from 18th century to present, how many days of "independence" combined in whichever town were there? And what's the name of that primitive tribe?

In fact, the reason you can talk like this is that, the Chinese rulers, for hundreds of years, have been so tolerant to the extent that they respected your language, religion and identity. If Hans were any bit like the European settlers in America, there would be no room for everything you talked about at all.


P.S. I 've never written anything like this before and i know i was being very offensive. I apologize for inappropriate language and everything but i provide only truth and facts. In everyday life i'm a human right advocate and i totally understand the situation of the minority ethnic groups in China and hope things to improve. However, life is multi-faucet and I dislike the sort of "against China no matter what" sentiment. And I just want these people to be reasonable, objective and a little less emotional. Please don't blind your eyes with your emotions.

Memet Uyghur
13-03-08, 22:33
Danny,
Initially I wanted to ignore you, because it did not seem worth my time. But I have changed my mind after reading lisaz's response.
You can be counted as one of the most educated one among the Chinese in Xinjiang. I assume you have lived in the West for a while, exposed to the open and multi-cultural free society. It certainly shows. I would expect much worse from your compatriots still living in Xinjiang. Most of them are either of magliur origin or their descendants. They were from the bottom rung of the Chinese society. You cannot expect much from them. I have not met a single Chinese back there who showed any concern about the social injustice faced by the local people. Yes, there were racial discrimination and other injustice in the West, but they were largely overcame it over the time because there were people from the ruling class or people who had conscience and showed concern for oppressed. As a result, you do not face the same discrimination that the Chinese immigrants faced in 19th and early 20th Century. But, in Xinjiang, the most enlightened people are being like you, we do not see a ray of light.
As it turned out, both Joshua and me were correct. According to Wikipedia, there are 2400 Tuvas in China, mainly in Xinjiang, but their ethnicity is registered as Mongolian. I said there were no Tuvas in Xinjiang, because they are not one of 13 nationalities officially recognized. I bet you already knew this, because you are from the knowing stock. I bet you know much more about the minorities (by the way, we are not a minority, at least not yet in Xinjiang).
Wow, you counted every school in Urumchi where you can find a Uyghur student. A few Uyghurs go to the Chinese school; probably whichever school is closer to them. Therefore, many schools in Urumchi have a small number of Uyghur students. But, it does not make it a Uyghur school.
You are right in one point though: we had houses made of mud bricks before the Chinese came. But, remember, you parents came because they did not even have a bud brick house. Most of the Chinese came to our land because they had nothing wherever they came from. When your people first come as manglius (migrants), they have nothing but a dirty luggage. They are so poor and filthy that it is simply impossible to hate them looking at their miserable looks. But, they have a strong government behind them to help them stand on their feet. They are given jobs or land and water. It takes no time before they start to look down on the locals and call them "dirty and smelly". Poor people do look dirty and they sometimes smell. But, if you want to compare hygiene between two peoples you have to apple to apple, that means you have to compare people with comparable education and income. Most Uyghurs are peasants or unemployed, thanks to your people, and if you compare the Chinese with good jobs to the Uyghur peasants or small traders trying to make a living peddling stuff on the streets, you may win. But, if you compare people with same education level and income, you cannot possibly win. The feeling of bad hygiene is quite mutual. Uyghurs think Chinese are dirty and smells too, even the city folks like you. You just cannot smell it because you grew up with it.
Bingtuan agricultural farms are all located on the upper reaches of rivers that feed the traditional Uyghur farm lands. As the Chinese in bingtuan diverted the water, the most precious resources of the dry region, and prospered, the Uyghur farmlands down stream shrunk due to lack of water. Uyghur population has grown significantly like everybody else in the world since 1949, but their farming lands become smaller. Technology in the 20th century helped people around the world to resolve population pressure by expanding cultivated lands and building cities, but we have been deprived of that opportunity. If your people brought anything to us, it is the famine, poverty and pollution. According to known history and elders, there never had been any famine in land until you people came and started the "Great Leap Forward." People may not had been rich, but they always had enough to eat unlike the Chinese. The quality of life was better in Xinjiang in 1949 than the rest of war-torn China.
When we talk about colonialism, you people are always quick to point to the Indians in US as if the Europeans were intrinsically bad and murderous and the Chinese were not. Since we are in Asia, why not compare us with the Asian colonies such as Hong Kong, Philippines, Indonesia, India etc? Did the Europeans butchered the Hong Kongese? Are not they better off than you because of the colonialism? Most of UN members including many European nations today did not even exist as a country before world war II. We, at the other hand, have had a long history of being independent nation, not necessarily as a united country all the time though, and declared independence in 1933, long before many of the existing countries declared independence. The second East Turkistan Republic of 1944 existed for 6 years as a coalition goverment formed by Muslim Uyghurs, Kazaks, Kygyz and Hui, and Buddhist Mongols and Christian Russians. Many countries in Asia became independent long after 1944. Even though we were one step ahead of may nations, our right for independence was not recognized by UN which was largely comprised by nations born after ours and conveniently declared that "colonialism was over." Too bad that the Chinese were not white, in eye of the world the colonialism is patented by the whites. If you are colonized by none-whites, it does not count as colonialism.
I do not want to go into the history discussion with you. Your version of history does not explain the facts on the ground. The local people do not share anything with the Chinese, not even your ubiquitous food. Because we lived in different countries separated by hundreds of miles of desert. Because of this geographic barrier, inter-travel and communication did not exist except occasional military excursions and trips by missionaries before the Manchus brought you to our land first. That is why you could not point to a single Chinese settlement, a village or city, existed before 20th Century. Colonialism is not over yet. It still exists in East Turkistan, Tibet and Inner Mongolia. That is fact that nothing can change!!!