PDA

View Full Version : Freedom's Herald is open



jack II
21-10-07, 19:56
Dear friends,
It has been quite a while since I sent a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. I was polite and straightforward in asking that he sit down at dinner with me and some friends and talk about the situation in the PRC. Unfortunately, he ignored my sincere request for dialog.

Since actions speak louder than words, the Freedom's Herald website has been created and is now up and running. Again, my apologies for sitting out for so long, but since I have given them ample warning and an opportunity to avoid embarrasment, the time has come for the consequences to unfold.

At this website, there are no forums, but I have created a couple of mailing lists that used to be run from taklamakan.org, namely Uighur-L and SMongol-L.
Other mailing lists will be added as necessary and/or requested.

In addition to the mailing lists, there are some other plans and campaigns in the works.

3sPafXaHVhA

Please join Uighur-L (and the discussion) again at:
http://freedomsherald.org/mailman/listinfo/uighur-l_freedomsherald.org

For Freedom,
Jack Churchward
tikanchemenlik@freedomsherald.org

Kevin
22-10-07, 13:05
Dear friends,
It has been quite a while since I sent a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. I was polite and straightforward in asking that he sit down at dinner with me and some friends and talk about the situation in the PRC. Unfortunately, he ignored my sincere request for dialog.

Since actions speak louder than words, the Freedom's Herald website has been created and is now up and running. Again, my apologies for sitting out for so long, but since I have given them ample warning and an opportunity to avoid embarrasment, the time has come for the consequences to unfold.

At this website, there are no forums, but I have created a couple of mailing lists that used to be run from taklamakan.org, namely Uighur-L and SMongol-L.
Other mailing lists will be added as necessary and/or requested.

In addition to the mailing lists, there are some other plans and campaigns in the works.

3sPafXaHVhA

Please join Uighur-L (and the discussion) again at:
http://freedomsherald.org/mailman/listinfo/uighur-l_freedomsherald.org

For Freedom,
Jack Churchward
tikanchemenlik@freedomsherald.org

Hi, Jack.
First of all, I will like to give you credits for showing your sincerity in a serious discussion regarding China.
I think we have to agree and disagree in China, and primarily disagree by offering an alternative view not being proposed by our mainstream media.
With regards to justification of actions, their moral issues and realistic impacts, double standards is something all people capable of logic tend to frown upon.

First of all, let us examine this picture of lala land promised and painted by our MSM( mainstream media), be it fox news CNN or TIMES in U.S or BBC and Economists in UK, we are lauching a crusade against region of totalitarianism where there is little regard to sense of humanity such as democracy and human rights.

With jargons such as Humanitarian Intervention U.S and Nato stepped in Kosovo against Serbian forces in Kosovo, and bombed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia. Driven by increasing pressure for multinational companies and industries and the thirst for oil-the bloodline of mordern economy, U.S invaded Iraq in the name of national security and Iraq's possession of weapons of mass destruction. Nato ,against the wish of the Polish majority,continue its line of missle "defence" in Poalnd against modern Russia which is technically a democracy.

On the Other hand we have Russia and China, who barely stepped out of the communists's marxist model of economy into a command economy. China was concerned with its stability judging from the turmoil regarding the implementation of glasnost in Soviet regime when political control and economic improvement are not yet ready for a large scaled reform. Russia, in particular, rules her own globalist agenda to her national interest, through nationalising of her own oil industry. Undoubtedly, both are aware and fear of an overt and dominant amount of American influence.

What Xinjiang means for China is a direct access to natural gas in central asian nations such as Uzbekistand and Turkistan, the former Soveit nations and Russia ,who are willing to sell of their surplus to the Chinese. Xinjiang indriectly means a strengthening of ties between nations of Shanghai cooperation who are uncomfortabley aware of U.S influence.

We have to, though to different degree, come to an consensus that under the banner of democracy and freedom( 3 decades ago was about the godless evil empire), America is pushing for her own globalist interest, of an empire of the world's largest economy, multinational companies as well she strategic maneovour in her geopolitical interest.

In another words, this make your accusation of China's assistance to Iran invalid fromyour moral ground regarding "trust", considering that Iran is part of the family of Shanghai cooperationand american has been far more draconian in international competition. It is a competition and a conflict of interest. There is nothing "sinister" about the cooperation between those nations in the eastern hemisphere. Let us face the fact that american leaders are lobbying support from the base through a propaganda of post-civil rights era human rights ideas and instilling us a false sense of duty to spread "democracy" at the actual expense of the national security.

Up to now, no leader, other than congressman Ron Paul advocated the essense of the issue that our interventionist fanaticism has cost us a September 11. Our leaders yet do not scrutinise the standard of human rights in Israel_palestinian conflict when Israel has been strongest ally in the Middle East.

Sorry for the unnecessary digression for the longwinded explanation above but the key idea of mine is to establish that the liberal media's portray of our constant crusade against enemies of freedom hides more subtle lies than truth and there is no justification for U.S or any other NGO to aggressively infringe the sovereignty of other nations other than furthering the globalist ambition.
Hence, there is no moral card for interventionism.

On another note U.S and the west in general should be actively aware of the people whom they are supporting because this is of grave importance. East trukistan movement has repeatedly made "race" and "culture" as an issue in their separatist movement, akin to what the Neo-Nazi and white supremacists are doing in the west to fuel their nonsensical hatred. They repeated see China as a Han chinese government and argue for "self-determination" of Uyghur Chinese in Xinjiang where non-Uyghur in Xinjiang, though being 2nd of 3rd generation immigrants have no rights in the referendum.

We cannot support this kind of ethnic jingoism. Their advocacy is blatantly obvious and I can illustrate with further evidence if you are interested.

We must remember that human rights and democracy by definition are color-blind and culturaly unbiased.
We cannot borrow our support to foreign hate groups who try to lobby our support in the name of "freedom". It must be made clear that lack of freedom in China has been a general issue which targets no minority.

Just because China being a communist, the hate groups become "freedom fighters". We must stop this bizzare twist of logic.

The double standard must end.

Thanks for reading.

With Regards,
Kevin

jack II
23-10-07, 20:28
Hi Kevin.
Thank you for taking the time to type your response, however we will have to agree to disagree on most (if not all) of what you wrote. All these things you write appear to be accusations with just a little tiny bit of truth mixed in.

From my point of view, it would obviously be a waste of time to go over it point by point. I have seen many times where an apparently sincere person wishes to discuss some points when what they really desire is to change the subject and/or the focus of the original discussion. While I will not make that accusation at this time, it all depends on your response.

Just so that you know where I am coming from:
I am proud to be an American and I have no reason to apologize for being an American.
Period. If you have a problem with it, cry to your mommy.

As far as the ‘Han Chinese’ nature of the government, why do you disavow it? If the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region was autonomous, then the Party bosses would be from Xinjiang, not sent from Beijing.

I’ll leave you with one more question. How many Han Chinese will be left in Xinjiang if the Bingtuan or PLA packed up and returned to China?

Hox,
Jack Churchward

PS I already consider that I spent too much time in answering your posting, don’t expect more next time.

Kevin
23-10-07, 21:32
Hi Kevin.
Thank you for taking the time to type your response, however we will have to agree to disagree on most (if not all) of what you wrote. All these things you write appear to be accusations with just a little tiny bit of truth mixed in.

From my point of view, it would obviously be a waste of time to go over it point by point. I have seen many times where an apparently sincere person wishes to discuss some points when what they really desire is to change the subject and/or the focus of the original discussion. While I will not make that accusation at this time, it all depends on your response.

Just so that you know where I am coming from:
I am proud to be an American and I have no reason to apologize for being an American.
Period. If you have a problem with it, cry to your mommy.

As far as the ‘Han Chinese’ nature of the government, why do you disavow it? If the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region was autonomous, then the Party bosses would be from Xinjiang, not sent from Beijing.

I’ll leave you with one more question. How many Han Chinese will be left in Xinjiang if the Bingtuan or PLA packed up and returned to China?

Hox,
Jack Churchward

PS I already consider that I spent too much time in answering your posting, don’t expect more next time.
The Han Chinese will go back to their home the day when we pack up and go back to Europe from America while African American pack up and go back to Africa.

People are just people, ordinary folks who make money and a living. Surely some see there as home as some dont.

Unregistered
23-10-07, 22:25
HIIIIII
roocyam11@gmail.com

Richard
25-10-07, 18:57
Ke Wen,
Let's invade China and move a lot of people there from around the world. There are a lot of poor people from the third world countries who would love to go to China if we offer then economic incentives. Even the Japanese might be willing to come in again. Japan is pretty crowded, you know. Let's give the immigrants more power since we invite them in, if the Chinese resist, kill them. Pretty soon, the immigrant population will surpass the Chinese population, then we can talk about referendum.
Does this sound a good plan?


The Han Chinese will go back to their home the day when we pack up and go back to Europe from America while African American pack up and go back to Africa.

People are just people, ordinary folks who make money and a living. Surely some see there as home as some dont.

Kevin
26-10-07, 11:21
Ke Wen,
Let's invade China and move a lot of people there from around the world. There are a lot of poor people from the third world countries who would love to go to China if we offer then economic incentives. Even the Japanese might be willing to come in again. Japan is pretty crowded, you know. Let's give the immigrants more power since we invite them in, if the Chinese resist, kill them. Pretty soon, the immigrant population will surpass the Chinese population, then we can talk about referendum.
Does this sound a good plan?
Your imagination is irrelevant because the comparison is grossly exaggerated.
What do you want to do with the Uzbeks, Huis, Hans and Mongels? They are born there. They pay tax. They abide the law.
Kick them out?
Whats your suggestion?

Unregistered
26-10-07, 11:41
We have problem only with Hans who wants to boss over us. They are the only illegal immigrants. If they pay tax, they pay to the Chinese who use the money to buy bigger guns, if they abide by the law, they abide by the law of China which we do not recognize. China is an occupier, colonizer, oppresser. You compared the situation to US and said Chinese will go back when Europeans go back to Europe from US. The difference is that US was colonized by the British. People who live here overthrew their colonial rule to establish and independent state for themselves. Probablu you did not notice, there is an independence day holiday on July 4 which celebrates the kicking out of the colonizer British. At the other hand, East Turkistan was and still is colonized by China. If the Han Chinese in East Turkistan join with locals to overthrow the Chinese, they could earn a right to call East Turkistan home. But, I assure you that they will never do that, because they got used to living better life on the expenses of locals. The Han Chinese are actually active participants of oppression. You do not hear single Chinese show concern to the gross injustice inflicted on the local people.



Your imagination is irrelevant because the comparison is grossly exaggerated.
What do you want to do with the Uzbeks, Huis, Hans and Mongels? They are born there. They pay tax. They abide the law.
Kick them out?
Whats your suggestion?

Kevin
27-10-07, 11:50
We have problem only with Hans who wants to boss over us. They are the only illegal immigrants. If they pay tax, they pay to the Chinese who use the money to buy bigger guns, if they abide by the law, they abide by the law of China which we do not recognize. China is an occupier, colonizer, oppresser. You compared the situation to US and said Chinese will go back when Europeans go back to Europe from US. The difference is that US was colonized by the British. People who live here overthrew their colonial rule to establish and independent state for themselves. Probablu you did not notice, there is an independence day holiday on July 4 which celebrates the kicking out of the colonizer British. At the other hand, East Turkistan was and still is colonized by China. If the Han Chinese in East Turkistan join with locals to overthrow the Chinese, they could earn a right to call East Turkistan home. But, I assure you that they will never do that, because they got used to living better life on the expenses of locals. The Han Chinese are actually active participants of oppression. You do not hear single Chinese show concern to the gross injustice inflicted on the local people.

Thank you for making a decent reply.
I have done some study on this and it is untrue that Han people always side with the government. The pro-democracy movement outside China is lead by students who are purged in 1989. one of the leaders named Wuer Kaixi is actully a Uyghur Chinese who resides in Taiwan and married to another Chinese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuer_Kaixi
I know there are some Chinese policemen who are racist to Uyghurs by judging them as terrorists and pay extra attention to them when they board bus. But the same apply to some Uyghur gangsters. In 2000, there is a Han woman being stabbed to death for touching some mutton without buying them. Some Hui people have been killed in the past under the slogan of "kill hui and annihilate the hans".
The solution of the problem is to stop thinking alone racial and religious line. Love and tolerance is inherent among fellow humans. If you keep thinking along the burden of the past of the Turkistan Nation which barely existed less than a year, there is no way you can recouncil with people who dont share the dream, especially the huis, Mongols and Hans.
From what I observe, the road to independence will be a road paved with blood. You must not turn your land into another Palestine or Chechen. Im looking from a perspective which is good for all.

Unregistered
27-10-07, 12:53
Humans always yearn for justice and fight for it even when it means bloodshed. History books of every nation bear witness to that. If the Chinese did not resist the Japanese rule, probably they would not lose millions of lives and would go through the economic and political hardships of the 60s and 70s, but they chose to fight against them. I am sure not single Chinese regrets for that, do not you agree? Humans have a thing called dignity which is more valuable than blood and even live it self. A person who lacks it may not understand it though.
When the issue on the ground is very much racial, how can you stop thinking about it along the racial line? East Turkistan always existed even though under different names at different times. It is not merely a name, it refers to our homeland where our identity was formed and nourished. In the old world, evey major ethnic groups have their own homeland where they can be who they are. If some one invade their homeland and settle there without the permission they would like it. Even in US, which is an immigrant country, people would not like it if people come here withough government's (which represent its people) permission.



Thank you for making a decent reply.
I have done some study on this and it is untrue that Han people always side with the government. The pro-democracy movement outside China is lead by students who are purged in 1989. one of the leaders named Wuer Kaixi is actully a Uyghur Chinese who resides in Taiwan and married to another Chinese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuer_Kaixi
I know there are some Chinese policemen who are racist to Uyghurs by judging them as terrorists and pay extra attention to them when they board bus. But the same apply to some Uyghur gangsters. In 2000, there is a Han woman being stabbed to death for touching some mutton without buying them. Some Hui people have been killed in the past under the slogan of "kill hui and annihilate the hans".
The solution of the problem is to stop thinking alone racial and religious line. Love and tolerance is inherent among fellow humans. If you keep thinking along the burden of the past of the Turkistan Nation which barely existed less than a year, there is no way you can recouncil with people who dont share the dream, especially the huis, Mongols and Hans.
From what I observe, the road to independence will be a road paved with blood. You must not turn your land into another Palestine or Chechen. Im looking from a perspective which is good for all.

Aries
27-10-07, 13:10
Kevin, or should I call your real Chinese name Zhang or Wong???

Who in the world do you think you are to tell us what is good for Uyghurs and what is not? You are in no position to make any comment on this not just because you are a stinky Chinese dog, but also because you are totally blind to humanity and justice. Don't pretend like you are being objective, rational or whatever. Your chauvinism, narrow-mindedness and paranoia reached to the degree that I keep wondering if you ever really lived in this free country. Honestly speaking I have a great pity for you because there is no difference between you and those Chinese who are brainwashed and lived in that oppressive totalitarian regime in China for their entire lives.

You keep saying race or ethnicity is not an issue. If so, why are you so afraid of using your Chinese name here? and why are so afraid of admitting that you are Chinese? As a matter of fact, that is all that matters. You’ve been ignored, scorned and abandoned just because who you are. Your poor parents risked their lives to come to this country to have a better future. They did dirty jobs in their entire lives with minimum wages in order to raise you, and you really studied hard to prove that you are something. But you know what, you still see other white students had better life so easily than you without working any harder. You feel it is not fair because you think you are smarter, and more diligent than they are. You are frustrated, angry, defeated and hateful. That is the reason why you come here to get some attention to make yourself feel a little bit better, isn't it? You don't have any better way to spend your miserable life! Even some Asian chicks won't bother to take a look at you. I know it must have been very hard for you... Too bad, but we can't help you with your emotional, mental problems and self-esteem issues. Don't take your anger, frustration, and misfortune out on us. Go get some help from a psychiatrist. That is exactly what you need at this point. Before that, don't you pretend like a human being and expect any respect and fair answer to your ignorant questions. Dogs are always dogs no matter how hard they try to act like human beings; therefore they don't deserve human treatment.


Thank you for making a decent reply.
I have done some study on this and it is untrue that Han people always side with the government. The pro-democracy movement outside China is lead by students who are purged in 1989. one of the leaders named Wuer Kaixi is actully a Uyghur Chinese who resides in Taiwan and married to another Chinese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuer_Kaixi
I know there are some Chinese policemen who are racist to Uyghurs by judging them as terrorists and pay extra attention to them when they board bus. But the same apply to some Uyghur gangsters. In 2000, there is a Han woman being stabbed to death for touching some mutton without buying them. Some Hui people have been killed in the past under the slogan of "kill hui and annihilate the hans".
The solution of the problem is to stop thinking alone racial and religious line. Love and tolerance is inherent among fellow humans. If you keep thinking along the burden of the past of the Turkistan Nation which barely existed less than a year, there is no way you can recouncil with people who dont share the dream, especially the huis, Mongols and Hans.
From what I observe, the road to independence will be a road paved with blood. You must not turn your land into another Palestine or Chechen. Im looking from a perspective which is good for all.

Unregistered
27-10-07, 13:10
he is leaving messages in every english thread and redirecting the purpose of the
discussion....instead of talking to him you can follow jecks advice and read some really good articles on that website.. or you can write your own and share it with others...

you do not win anything by talking to him,but you sure will loss your time...read or
learn something instead.

Kevin
27-10-07, 14:49
Humans always yearn for justice and fight for it even when it means bloodshed. History books of every nation bear witness to that. If the Chinese did not resist the Japanese rule, probably they would not lose millions of lives and would go through the economic and political hardships of the 60s and 70s, but they chose to fight against them. I am sure not single Chinese regrets for that, do not you agree? Humans have a thing called dignity which is more valuable than blood and even live it self. A person who lacks it may not understand it though.
When the issue on the ground is very much racial, how can you stop thinking about it along the racial line? East Turkistan always existed even though under different names at different times. It is not merely a name, it refers to our homeland where our identity was formed and nourished. In the old world, evey major ethnic groups have their own homeland where they can be who they are. If some one invade their homeland and settle there without the permission they would like it. Even in US, which is an immigrant country, people would not like it if people come here withough government's (which represent its people) permission.

I understand your view, though dont agree totally. Everyone wants the best but thats how conflict arrive. You have to compromise with reality to a certain degree though.
You look at the situation in middle east. Even the dictator like ahmadinejad want to "wipe Israel off the map" and alot palestinians are continuing their suicide attack on Israel civilians. Israel military counter attck and result in more mutual destruction. Thats what happen why they dont compromise. The Arabs should realise that alot Israelites are born there are see it as their home. Even Israel has been trying to talk to Arab leaders are signed treaty of non-aggression with some of the countries.

It is not humane to "wipe people" out but prevent nothing has happened. What has happened has already happened. When people talk to each other, negotiate with each other, somehow exert pressure with each other, thing get better.

Let us look at Chechnya and the Beslan school crisis, over 200 beautiful and innocent children died because people hate other races in their place and demanded independence.

The reality of the situation is UN will not support a referendum for Uyghur only because it is against the idea of universal suffrage which means no one should be discriminted on the basis of race, gender or religion. Han, Hui and mongol who are more than half of the population do not want to live in a new country where they have to custom to turkic language and new cultures and new laws. They are born there and see it as their home. the only way u can get independence is through violence. There will be a bloodshed. And you said it is okay because pride and dignity matter more?Does your revolution make any difference if 90% of Uyghurs die before independence? So think twice.

When I say not thinking alone racial lines, i mean it is perfectly okay for you to feel proud of your heritage. But what do you think of when u see a 3 year old han chinese girl? Descendents of Invaders? Hatred!?

The Chechens know they cant fight the mighty Russian Army so they resort to hatred. They see beautiful and innocent Russian Children in Beslan as targets for being Russian. Im not okay with that. The world is not okay with bloodshed.

Anyway do you know the origin of Turkic people? When Mongol-East Turkic tribe travel to Asia and inter-mix with Iranian and indo-europeans, this give rise of many modern turkic people. Technically Everyone is "invader" or "immigrant".

Independence means violence because there are half of the population who dont accept. History shows that violence and hatred repeat in cycles. So I beg you to think twice.

Kevin
27-10-07, 15:05
Kevin, or should I call your real Chinese name Zhang or Wong???

Who in the world do you think you are to tell us what is good for Uyghurs and what is not? You are in no position to make any comment on this not just because you are a stinky Chinese dog, but also because you are totally blind to humanity and justice. Don't pretend like you are being objective, rational or whatever. Your chauvinism, narrow-mindedness and paranoia reached to the degree that I keep wondering if you ever really lived in this free country. Honestly speaking I have a great pity for you because there is no difference between you and those Chinese who are brainwashed and lived in that oppressive totalitarian regime in China for their entire lives.

You keep saying race or ethnicity is not an issue. If so, why are you so afraid of using your Chinese name here? and why are so afraid of admitting that you are Chinese? As a matter of fact, that is all that matters. You’ve been ignored, scorned and abandoned just because who you are. Your poor parents risked their lives to come to this country to have a better future. They did dirty jobs in their entire lives with minimum wages in order to raise you, and you really studied hard to prove that you are something. But you know what, you still see other white students had better life so easily than you without working any harder. You feel it is not fair because you think you are smarter, and more diligent than they are. You are frustrated, angry, defeated and hateful. That is the reason why you come here to get some attention to make yourself feel a little bit better, isn't it? You don't have any better way to spend your miserable life! Even some Asian chicks won't bother to take a look at you. I know it must have been very hard for you... Too bad, but we can't help you with your emotional, mental problems and self-esteem issues. Don't take your anger, frustration, and misfortune out on us. Go get some help from a psychiatrist. That is exactly what you need at this point. Before that, don't you pretend like a human being and expect any respect and fair answer to your ignorant questions. Dogs are always dogs no matter how hard they try to act like human beings; therefore they don't deserve human treatment.

Is this movement about freedom or hatred? Well, You answered.
I apologise if I sound provocative sometimes because thats what I learn in debates. I see hyprocrisy and inconsistency in the movement and hence I asked again and again.

Debate lies with reason, facts, evidence and argument, not the person making the claim. the person is irrelevant.
Let me give you a break down of myself if You are interested.
I grow up in NYC, of Irish and German origin. I have friends of all backgrounds, rich or poor, white, black or asian. I have some Chinese friends and have dated a Chinese girl who taught me Chinese 5 years back. And I can NEVER understand why you hate them so much. They are friendly, hardworking and decent people.

I dont know how to neutralise your hatred but I think you have heard of MartinLuther King.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Aries, hopefully you can know my stance and gave up the seething hatred in your heart.

Aries
27-10-07, 17:52
You know what, I am NOT interested in who you are and what you do. Keep all that drama to yourself, ok? But if you keep speading lies, and sabotaging our cause, I won't tolerate. I am the last person that you wanna mess with.

You don't know why we hate Chinese so much because you never know what it means to be a Uyghur in China. And I don't have time to explain that to a narrow-minded, defeated and troubled person who lacks basic human qualities. If you really have four kids as you claimed, great, go ahead, feed them well, take them for a walk, and get them better education. Don't let them become an ignorant person like you. But honestly, you sound like a person who doesn't even have a cat to feed. Actually I am starting to worry about your kids...ahh... it must be a disaster to have a father like you who is obssesed with his so-called "facts, evidence" and lectures other people what to do while he doesn't even know what he is doing and how to handle his life. What on earth do you think you hold facts and all the evidence, by the way? How do you know what you know is reliable? Have you been to East Turkistan, or have you EVER tried to learn anything about Uyghur history and their current situation without making a prejudgment? Obviously not.

You stand by the oppressive regime and its supporters, you actually are involved in inhumanity, therefore you are my enemy, period. It has nothing to do with hatred, but everything to do with humanity and justice.



Is this movement about freedom or hatred? Well, You answered.
I apologise if I sound provocative sometimes because thats what I learn in debates. I see hyprocrisy and inconsistency in the movement and hence I asked again and again.

Debate lies with reason, facts, evidence and argument, not the person making the claim. the person is irrelevant.
Let me give you a break down of myself if You are interested.
I grow up in NYC, of Irish and German origin. I have friends of all backgrounds, rich or poor, white, black or asian. I have some Chinese friends and have dated a Chinese girl who taught me Chinese 5 years back. And I can NEVER understand why you hate them so much. They are friendly, hardworking and decent people.

I dont know how to neutralise your hatred but I think you have heard of MartinLuther King.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Aries, hopefully you can know my stance and gave up the seething hatred in your heart.

Kevin
27-10-07, 22:37
You know what, I am NOT interested in who you are and what you do. Keep all that drama to yourself, ok? But if you keep speading lies, and sabotaging our cause, I won't tolerate. I am the last person that you wanna mess with.

You don't know why we hate Chinese so much because you never know what it means to be a Uyghur in China. And I don't have time to explain that to a narrow-minded, defeated and troubled person who lacks basic human qualities. If you really have four kids as you claimed, great, go ahead, feed them well, take them for a walk, and get them better education. Don't let them become an ignorant person like you. But honestly, you sound like a person who doesn't even have a cat to feed. Actually I am starting to worry about your kids...ahh... it must be a disaster to have a father like you who is obssesed with his so-called "facts, evidence" and lectures other people what to do while he doesn't even know what he is doing and how to handle his life. What on earth do you think you hold facts and all the evidence, by the way? How do you know what you know is reliable? Have you been to East Turkistan, or have you EVER tried to learn anything about Uyghur history and their current situation without making a prejudgment? Obviously not.

You stand by the oppressive regime and its supporters, you actually are involved in inhumanity, therefore you are my enemy, period. It has nothing to do with hatred, but everything to do with humanity and justice.

No I dont have 4 kids. It is an extract with Marthin Luther King's speech.
What do you say Im sabotaging your cause? If you have history and logic with you, whats so hard about keep people debate with me?
You are wrong to think that I have not studied your history. I understand situation in Xinjiang, Chechenya and palestine better than most of you.
If you think you want to free the Uyghur and kill everybody else, then the world is against you.
Im against indepedence with means discrimination and bloodshed.

Unregistered
28-10-07, 01:20
Don't you Kavin and all worry about how!

But:

East Turkistan will be independent

just as all the 15 new countries from former soviet union did ...

just as the 6 new countries from former yogoslavia did...

or just as the south afrika did...

you should look at how the majority of the Uyghur movement are working towards the future of East Turkistan...

Kevin
28-10-07, 02:28
Don't you Kavin and all worry about how!

But:

East Turkistan will be independent

just as all the 15 new countries from former soviet union did ...

just as the 6 new countries from former yogoslavia did...

or just as the south afrika did...

you should look at how the majority of the Uyghur movement are working towards the future of East Turkistan...

How?
Through peaceful referendum or Militant Uprising?
If through militant way, are u going to borrow U.S troop support or through terrorist attack on primary schools and kindergardens with your Chechen brethens?
If you want to do the peaceful way Uyghur majority only occur in the south western Xinjiang, which is much smaller.
Can the 7 million population with virtually no industry, economy or military survive when China, Russia and Kazakistan all want to have influence in the strategic location?
But most people know and dont care, but they pretend to care about Chinese and Uyghur and other minorities.
Thats the problem.

Unregistered
28-10-07, 04:58
You know what, I am NOT interested in who you are and what you do. Keep all that drama to yourself, ok? But if you keep speading lies, and sabotaging our cause, I won't tolerate. I am the last person that you wanna mess with.

You don't know why we hate Chinese so much because you never know what it means to be a Uyghur in China. And I don't have time to explain that to a narrow-minded, defeated and troubled person who lacks basic human qualities. If you really have four kids as you claimed, great, go ahead, feed them well, take them for a walk, and get them better education. Don't let them become an ignorant person like you. But honestly, you sound like a person who doesn't even have a cat to feed. Actually I am starting to worry about your kids...ahh... it must be a disaster to have a father like you who is obssesed with his so-called "facts, evidence" and lectures other people what to do while he doesn't even know what he is doing and how to handle his life. What on earth do you think you hold facts and all the evidence, by the way? How do you know what you know is reliable? Have you been to East Turkistan, or have you EVER tried to learn anything about Uyghur history and their current situation without making a prejudgment? Obviously not.

You stand by the oppressive regime and its supporters, you actually are involved in inhumanity, therefore you are my enemy, period. It has nothing to do with hatred, but everything to do with humanity and justice.


come on now we both know what he is...people from ireland you know their history man...
and this idiot is saying he is a mixture of german and irish blood....tell that to your lao ma and she will bank your chinese ass for denying your own nationality...the same goes for chuck as well.. why would an irish spend so much time trying to persuade people,whom he doesnt even know about.
it is their hunger for teritory and power..and as some one else said earlier,the chinese got used to live on the expenses of others.....he and chuck 2 simple chinese charaters who can not tolerate the attention uyghurs getting and decided to act on their own to protect their interests...it is that simple......as for humanity and justice,i am not generalising here but chinese people have very little since of justice....5000 years of chinese culture that they brag so much about,produced nothing more than one and a half billion pests so beausy trying to feed themselves...(democracy is shit, put some food on the table) is the chinese mentality...

Kevin
28-10-07, 05:41
come on now we both know what he is...people from ireland you know their history man...
and this idiot is saying he is a mixture of german and irish blood....tell that to your lao ma and she will bank your chinese ass for denying your own nationality...the same goes for chuck as well.. why would an irish spend so much time trying to persuade people,whom he doesnt even know about.
it is their hunger for teritory and power..and as some one else said earlier,the chinese got used to live on the expenses of others.....he and chuck 2 simple chinese charaters who can not tolerate the attention uyghurs getting and decided to act on their own to protect their interests...it is that simple......as for humanity and justice,i am not generalising here but chinese people have very little since of justice....5000 years of chinese culture that they brag so much about,produced nothing more than one and a half billion pests so beausy trying to feed themselves...(democracy is shit, put some food on the table) is the chinese mentality...

You people continue to amaze me.
Aris: You are a stinking chinese dog
Aris: I dont care who you are and Im not interested.

Aris: You dont know why we hate Chinese because you have never lived as an Uyghur in China.
Aris: It is not about hatred, but about humanity and justice.

Aris: Martin Luther King? You have 4 children?

Unregistered28103: Chinese spy!
Yes, you are right, CCP pays me a salary to attack you guys.
If we dont care, why the hell are some of us in Iraq?
If we dont care, whats UAA doing in America?

jack II
28-10-07, 13:30
Greetings,
I am an average white guy who grew up in the southern USA.
I have absolutely no idea what it means to be an Uyghur in China or an African-American in the southern USA, however that does not mean that I am incapable examining the situations and making a comment or two.

From my point of view, when I hear someone say "All white people are racists and they just spend their time keeping down the Black man (and woman)," really makes me angry. Like when I heard a liberal radio talk show host say that the only reason I joined the military was 'to kill brown people.' Those statements are so much BS. Maybe there are individuals that have those thoughts and ideas, but why do I, as an average white person, have to be painted with the same broad brushstokes?

I have never put on sheets and burned crosses in anyone's front yard. I treat everyone (read 'all human beings') with the same amount of respect until they demonstrate that they do not deserve it. That does not mean that because I don't understand something they did or said, I can cop an attitude and dismiss them. When I lose respect for someone, it is usually for things like: they lied to me repeatedly, or stole things from me, or stabbed me in the back. When these things happen, I do NOT say, "Oh, since that a-hole is a white guy, then all white guys must be a-holes.' [Please substitute 'white guy' in the previous sentence with 'Uyghur, Mongol, Tibetan, Black, Chinese, Malay, etc., etc.]

Like I said previously, I have no idea what it means to have been exposed to Chinese rule, however there is much evidence to indicate a cultural genocide and a campaign to silence all dissent in Eastern Turkestan. When outspoken critics have their relatives jailed and threatened that is low, dirty and just plain wrong.

Kevin, if you have the same dream as MLK, then I would suggest that you start by convincing your Uyghur brethren of your sincere desire to accept them for who and what they are. Like you said in an earlier posting,we are all just people with families and jobs - certainly there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but it is possible.

And my Uyghur brothers and sisters, if there are Chinese people who really care to make a difference in relations between the Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the PRC, do they not deserve a chance? Obviously there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but maybe there can be a thread devoted to a serious discussion of what it will take. Remember, any Chinese person that attempts to overcome that distrust will be a traitor to his people (in their minds) and possibly a friend.

I know full well that my name is mud now among many of you, however are we all not responsible to make the situation better? The Uyghurs that I have read about and met are happy, outgoing and tolerant; some of these postings do not sound like that.

For Freedom,,
Jack Churchward
Clearwater, Florida

btw, if there is no effort by 'Kevin' or 'Chuck' to seek a middle ground where calm rational discussion is possible, then they probably should be ignored, rather than push people into saying nasty things or wasting time on them. However, if you give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to open a common ground discussion and they urinate on themselves and you, then they are the morons and you are the good guy (it will wash off and you have the moral high ground.)

Unregistered
28-10-07, 13:36
Ke Wen,

Peace could not exist when some one invades some one else's home and violates his rights. You are barking peace to the wrong tree. You have to preach to those who broke the peace and planted the seeds of the violence. You cannnot rob some body and ask them to be quite and peaceful towards to you. No one can do that at his free will unless you use big guns to threaten them. That is exactly what China is doing to Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongols and many others. Only a insane or terribly stupid person compare the civil movement in US to the freedom movement of Uyghurs and Tibetans. The core issue in our cause is that China invaded our homeland and occupied it. The civil movement in US does not involve occupation of some one else's land.
According to your logic, it is okay to occupy some body's home as long as you have the power to do so and you have equal or more power as the original home owners. The problem with you Chinese is that when the Japanese sticked your logic to your ass, you have cried hell for 60 years and still crying, but when you holding the stick, you are eager to stick to some one else. Imagine a world where China had absolute superamacy as the US today. They would stick it to every one until no one left in the world except the Chinese. The world is too ignorant to see what an evil civilization could bring to the world if it becomes strong enough. You are not alone to think like this. Most of the ordinary Chinese thinks like you. According to you logic, since the Europeans took the land from the Indians by force, it would be okay for China to retake it from the Americans by force if it can even if it means to kill hundreds of millions of people, because the Europeans killed the Indians as well. We lived among you, only we know your sick minds. All we saw in your people in the past 58 years is extreme ugliness and darkness. That is we resist so hard to assimilation.

Unregistered
28-10-07, 17:08
We have yet to meet a Chinese (Taiwanese are not among them) who really care to make a change. All these Ke Wen and Chongs preach us to be quite no matter what China does. Basically, they say "obey China because it has guns to kill you, afradi of bloodshed. If they care, they should be talking to the perpertrators not the victims. They talk to us as if our behaviors are respobsible for the bad things happening to us.

[QUOTE=jack II;28112]Greetings,

And my Uyghur brothers and sisters, if there are Chinese people who really care to make a difference in relations between the Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the PRC, do they not deserve a chance? Obviously there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but maybe there can be a thread devoted to a serious discussion of what it will take. Remember, any Chinese person that attempts to overcome that distrust will be a traitor to his people (in their minds) and possibly a friend.

For Freedom,,
Jack Churchward
Clearwater, Florida

Unregistered
28-10-07, 19:33
And my Uyghur brothers and sisters, if there are Chinese people who really care to make a difference in relations between the Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the PRC, do they not deserve a chance? Obviously there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but maybe there can be a thread devoted to a serious discussion of what it will take. Remember, any Chinese person that attempts to overcome that distrust will be a traitor to his people (in their minds) and possibly a friend.

I know full well that my name is mud now among many of you, however are we all not responsible to make the situation better? The Uyghurs that I have read about and met are happy, outgoing and tolerant; some of these postings do not sound like that.

For Freedom,,
Jack Churchward
Clearwater, Florida

btw, if there is no effort by 'Kevin' or 'Chuck' to seek a middle ground where calm rational discussion is possible, then they probably should be ignored, rather than push people into saying nasty things or wasting time on them. However, if you give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to open a common ground discussion and they urinate on themselves and you, then they are the morons and you are the good guy (it will wash off and you have the moral high ground.)[/QUOTE]


i hope we can get some real chinese friensds,if i may say...
hope god lights up their heart and stand on the side of justice not benifite.
until than i have to take the main stream chinese as co-workers of the CCP....
i never heard any chinese mourning for the minority suffering in china..but still hmmm i want to believe that a good portion of the chinese people support us...mixed feelings my friend ..
we face contempt and humiliation almost daily in china... at work,on tv,streats...
but when u stand to a discussion with them,it would always be you who is unreasonable....
they call it bu jiang daoli in chinese......so i know no matter how hard i try i would always be the nomad sheferd who is bu jiang daoli ,because i am not good enough to reason with them...i am of low quality to them...do not tell me you have not sensed it from kevin or chucks posts....he keeps repeating inconsistency,hypocracy in our movement...many people replied to his question,but he thinks none are the answers.... maybe the correct answer is what he wants to hear......people like you give us hope on what we are doing....

i am always open for a respectful debate but it should not be one sided or something that is not worth a debate....i will take your advice my friend ,it is a sad thing to loss hope on people especially one and half a billion chinese....i hope the people of china stand up and act on their morals not egos or greed .

Unregistered
28-10-07, 23:47
Your imagination is irrelevant because the comparison is grossly exaggerated.
What do you want to do with the Uzbeks, Huis, Hans and Mongels? They are born there. They pay tax. They abide the law.
Kick them out?
Whats your suggestion?


The Han Chinese will go back to their home the day when we pack up and go back to Europe from America while African American pack up and go back to Africa.

People are just people, ordinary folks who make money and a living. Surely some see there as home as some dont.


Yuquridiki ikki "Quote" tinla Kevinning qandaqtur insaniyet dunyasi heqqide guzel arzularni qilidighan, otmushni eslimey hazir ucun keliship yahshi otushni tewsiye qilidighan insanperwer emes, belki putun hujeyre, hujeyrilirige Uyghurgha hem Uyghur herkitini qollawatqan Yawropa dunyasigha nepret singip ketken eng esheddi Hitay milletchisi ikenligi korunup turidu.

Qara uning heqni himaye qilghuchi bolup otturigha chiqishlirigha. Oziche Uzbeks, Huis hem Mongels heqqidimu oylap ketiptumish....U qaysi uyghurning aghzidin 'musteqil bolsaq bularning hemmisini qoghlap chiqiriwetimiz' digen gepni anglighandu? Meqsiti bular arisida ziddiyet tughdurush.

Shunga Englishchini yahshi bilidighan uyghur qerindashlirimgha tewsiyerim:

Kevin qandaq qavisa qawawersun, uning bilen karimiz bolmisun.

(Dear friends, let Kevin bark in whatever ways he likes, but, just ignore him.)

Kevin
29-10-07, 05:53
[QUOTE=Unregistered;28122
they call it bu jiang daoli in chinese......so i know no matter how hard i try i would always be the nomad sheferd who is bu jiang daoli ,because i am not good enough to reason with them...i am of low quality to them...do not tell me you have not sensed it from kevin or chucks posts....he keeps repeating inconsistency,hypocracy in our movement...many people replied to his question,but he thinks none are the answers.... maybe the correct answer is what he wants to hear......people like you give us hope on what we are doing....
QUOTE]
You are wrong to think that I have not being listening. In fact I tried to reply everyone and there is a freedom of debate. You said people here have answered my questions. When?
If Xinjiang is to be independent will it be supported by a military uprising or peaceful referendum?
If it is a peaceful referendum will it include non-Uyghur such as Han, Hui and Mongols?


Only one guy answered me that no they cant vote becuase they are invaders, even though they are 2nd or even 3rd generation people there because they pay tax to buy guns to suppress Uyghurs, because they abide the law of PRC but not East Turkistan.

I give him credit for that becuase he bothered to answer.

Kevin
29-10-07, 07:24
Ke Wen,

Peace could not exist when some one invades some one else's home and violates his rights. You are barking peace to the wrong tree. You have to preach to those who broke the peace and planted the seeds of the violence. You cannnot rob some body and ask them to be quite and peaceful towards to you. No one can do that at his free will unless you use big guns to threaten them. That is exactly what China is doing to Uyghurs, Tibetans, Mongols and many others. Only a insane or terribly stupid person compare the civil movement in US to the freedom movement of Uyghurs and Tibetans. The core issue in our cause is that China invaded our homeland and occupied it. The civil movement in US does not involve occupation of some one else's land.
According to your logic, it is okay to occupy some body's home as long as you have the power to do so and you have equal or more power as the original home owners. The problem with you Chinese is that when the Japanese sticked your logic to your ass, you have cried hell for 60 years and still crying, but when you holding the stick, you are eager to stick to some one else. Imagine a world where China had absolute superamacy as the US today. They would stick it to every one until no one left in the world except the Chinese. The world is too ignorant to see what an evil civilization could bring to the world if it becomes strong enough. You are not alone to think like this. Most of the ordinary Chinese thinks like you. According to you logic, since the Europeans took the land from the Indians by force, it would be okay for China to retake it from the Americans by force if it can even if it means to kill hundreds of millions of people, because the Europeans killed the Indians as well. We lived among you, only we know your sick minds. All we saw in your people in the past 58 years is extreme ugliness and darkness. That is we resist so hard to assimilation.

Somehow still a decent reply.
Quite strange that I also have heated arguments in other forum because Im pro-immigration and anti-Iraq War. but it never tend out to be something like that in this forum. So i suspect a cultural barrier perhaps.

A lot people here say chinese communists destroyed east turkistan and invade their land.

East tukistan existed during two periods 1932-1934 and then 1944-1945.

But before that let us do a break down of history there.
The earliest doumented migration of north western china or Xinjiang today was a group of Indo-European settlers.
After that, around 200BC there is a struggle of territories there between Han dynasty and XiongNus.
Around the 4th century, Chinese Empire was split and there is some weak form of control in presetn day Xinjiang where proto-mongolians control a majority of western xinijaing.
after that Tang Dynasty and the Khanates struggled for control ovver the region.
From 700s to 800s, Uyghur Empire stretched around Mongolia and Siberia.
Post 800s, the concept of modern Uyghur erupted.

The Uyghur refugees who fled southwest and west following the collapse of the Uyghur Empire established states in three areas: Gansu, present day Xinjiang, and the Valley of Chu River in the West Tian Shan ( Tengri-Tag) Mountains.

Those who fled west, together with other Turkic tribal groups living in Dzungaria and the Tarim Basin, established the Beshbalik-Turpan-Kucha state in the Tarim Basin, Turfan Depression, and Dzungaria. In the process, they merged with the local populations of Tocharians (or Tokharians, whose language was Indo-European). It is probable that genetically and culturally, modern Uyghurs descended from the nomadic Turkic tribes and the Indo-European-speaking groups who preceded them in the Tarim Basin oasis-cities, as well as Uyghurs from Mongolia . Today one can still see Uyghurs with light-colored skin and hair. Modern studies have found that modern Uyghur populations represent an admixture of eastern and western Eurasian mtDNA[8] and Y chromosome[9] lineages. It is at this time "Uyghur" can be used as an ethnic designation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

After that is the Kara-Khanid Khanate, a multi-ethnic empire, which includes uyghur as well, all the way until Mongol invasion
After the collapse of mongol, Dzungars a mongolian branch is the dominant force there until Manchu Qing empire conquered them.

Qing Empire was overthrown in 1911 and suceeded by Republic of China, during its reign which the establishemnt of first turkistan occured for 2 years due to a massive rebellion against the warlords by local people of all ethnicity, in which the existence of east turkistan was a byproduct of a major rebellion. It ended when Sheng, another warlod, with aid of soviet crushed the establishment.

The second ETR movement was encouraged by soviets to sabotage chinese nationalists forces. In 1949, ETR leaders agreed to incorporate the Three Districts into the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region and accept important positions within the administration after the defeat of Nationalits by the communists.


In conclusion, Xinjiang is home to many ethnicities where Uyghur appeared as late as in 800 ADs.
The first ETR was crushed by a chinese warlord with soviet backing and the second ETR was ended due to the decision of ETR leaders, not due to a communist military intervention.

Kevin
29-10-07, 07:58
Greetings,
I am an average white guy who grew up in the southern USA.
I have absolutely no idea what it means to be an Uyghur in China or an African-American in the southern USA, however that does not mean that I am incapable examining the situations and making a comment or two.

From my point of view, when I hear someone say "All white people are racists and they just spend their time keeping down the Black man (and woman)," really makes me angry. Like when I heard a liberal radio talk show host say that the only reason I joined the military was 'to kill brown people.' Those statements are so much BS. Maybe there are individuals that have those thoughts and ideas, but why do I, as an average white person, have to be painted with the same broad brushstokes?

I have never put on sheets and burned crosses in anyone's front yard. I treat everyone (read 'all human beings') with the same amount of respect until they demonstrate that they do not deserve it. That does not mean that because I don't understand something they did or said, I can cop an attitude and dismiss them. When I lose respect for someone, it is usually for things like: they lied to me repeatedly, or stole things from me, or stabbed me in the back. When these things happen, I do NOT say, "Oh, since that a-hole is a white guy, then all white guys must be a-holes.' [Please substitute 'white guy' in the previous sentence with 'Uyghur, Mongol, Tibetan, Black, Chinese, Malay, etc., etc.]

Like I said previously, I have no idea what it means to have been exposed to Chinese rule, however there is much evidence to indicate a cultural genocide and a campaign to silence all dissent in Eastern Turkestan. When outspoken critics have their relatives jailed and threatened that is low, dirty and just plain wrong.

Kevin, if you have the same dream as MLK, then I would suggest that you start by convincing your Uyghur brethren of your sincere desire to accept them for who and what they are. Like you said in an earlier posting,we are all just people with families and jobs - certainly there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but it is possible.

And my Uyghur brothers and sisters, if there are Chinese people who really care to make a difference in relations between the Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the PRC, do they not deserve a chance? Obviously there is a mountain of mistrust to be overcome, but maybe there can be a thread devoted to a serious discussion of what it will take. Remember, any Chinese person that attempts to overcome that distrust will be a traitor to his people (in their minds) and possibly a friend.

I know full well that my name is mud now among many of you, however are we all not responsible to make the situation better? The Uyghurs that I have read about and met are happy, outgoing and tolerant; some of these postings do not sound like that.

For Freedom,,
Jack Churchward
Clearwater, Florida

btw, if there is no effort by 'Kevin' or 'Chuck' to seek a middle ground where calm rational discussion is possible, then they probably should be ignored, rather than push people into saying nasty things or wasting time on them. However, if you give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to open a common ground discussion and they urinate on themselves and you, then they are the morons and you are the good guy (it will wash off and you have the moral high ground.)

Thanks for a decent post.
Decent posts hardly comes here.
Well you make two points to me.
Firstly to accept them for who they are. Are you talking about Uyghur Americans. For sure I generally accept them. Im pro-immigration and welcome people from all over the world who are willing to be Americans.

Secondly you said that I should direct my energy to criticise the Chinese government's jailing of political dissidents. For sure I never want that to happen in America because any goverment doing that will be a violation of personal liberty.

Here, in regard to East turkestan movement, Im opposed to it in general for some reasons.

1)The formation of a East Turkestan will be a mono-racial state for Uyghurs majority. Some even adovacte a religious theocracy which is hostile to non-believers.

2) The people who adovocate the establishment of ETR either advocate violence or racially biased referendum where 40% of the population decide the entire fate of xinjiang and its population

3) I oppose ethnic cleansing or involuntary deportation of Non-Uyghers out of Xinjiang. An 8 million population.

4) I strongly oppose acts of terrorism, which some (not all) here perceive as freedom fighters, especially after the Beslan School crisis.

A historical truth that often neglected by the pro-independence poster here-Xinjiang is a home to many ethnicities, Indo Europeans, Mongols, Chinese and Uyghurs.

The end of the second ETR was an agreement made by ETR rulers with the communist governemnt in 1949, as opposed to some who claimed that the communist invaed their home militarily.

What I would advocate for China is pushing for greater degree of freedom in the country regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. This shall be done through talks and negotiation. Hence with the some token, I oppose any measure that is "out of the system", for instance, sabotage and terrorist attack which are done for the sake of opposing the regime.

I believe that I have always explained my points in neat and coherent ways, avoiding self-contradictions and is always without personal attacks towards people who disagree with me.

If anyone disagree, we can discuss and argue with each other.

Thank you.

With Regards
Kevin

anti-lier
29-10-07, 09:39
Comrade Ke Wen,



Here, in regard to East turkestan movement, Im opposed to it in general for some reasons.

1)The formation of a East Turkestan will be a mono-racial state for Uyghurs majority. Some even adovacte a religious theocracy which is hostile to non-believers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ke Wen, there is a fundamental difference between sheer phantacy and fact. How can you prove that an East Turkestan will be a mono-racial state for Uyghurs by relying only on your own fabricated accusations? A mere speculation will spoil the tenancy of your argument, if it deserves being called an argument. You are not a prophet to foresee the future of East Turkistan. What you are doing here is nothing but to sell your untenable and rotten arguments to others to try in vain to convince them. All your arguments are merely illogical, because you have created such arguments that their conclusions are already implied in their premises. Put another way, the premises of your arguments presuppose the conclusions.

2) The people who adovocate the establishment of ETR either advocate violence or racially biased referendum where 40% of the population decide the entire fate of xinjiang and its population

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, non-sensical accusation. And again, how do you know it? How can prove it? First, by labelling Uyghurs as a people appealing to violence and terrorism, and then jumping to the conclusion that their state will inherently be violence-oriented? Oh, poor guy, you have got what you already put in your premise: baseless accusations, illogical argument and distorted way of reasoning.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) I oppose ethnic cleansing or involuntary deportation of Non-Uyghers out of Xinjiang. An 8 million population.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you oppose to ethnic cleansing, then why you turn an blind eye to your Chinese brothers who are precisely carrying out this inhuman project in East Turkestan? Are you not using double standard to the same issue? If so, it is you who are an utter and miserable hypocrite.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) I strongly oppose acts of terrorism, which some (not all) here perceive as freedom fighters, especially after the Beslan School crisis.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do not confuse the different issues. In order to prove that Uyghurs are engaging in terrorism, first, learn to base your arguments on sound and tangible evidence. Otherwise, stop preaching here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A historical truth that often neglected by the pro-independence poster here-Xinjiang is a home to many ethnicities, Indo Europeans, Mongols, Chinese and Uyghurs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right, that is why, during the second East Turkistan republic, Uyghurs, Mongols, Hui Muslims, Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs jointly created a strong army to fight against their common enemy: Chinese regime. If the chance allows and you will not die soon enough, then you will bear witness to the new joint resistance of these so called ethnic minorities against your brothers in the future, for they are all victims of Chinese rule. Their common destiny will unite them again more strongly than ever.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The end of the second ETR was an agreement made by ETR rulers with the communist governemnt in 1949, as opposed to some who claimed that the communist invaed their home militarily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was an agreement signed under intimidation, constrains and pressure. So it can never be authentic. Besides, it does not represent the will of the people of East Turkistan.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I would advocate for China is pushing for greater degree of freedom in the country regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. This shall be done through talks and negotiation. Hence with the some token, I oppose any measure that is "out of the system", for instance, sabotage and terrorist attack which are done for the sake of opposing the regime.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sell this stingy propaganda to others. You are praising murders as "freedom-givers" because you have lost your own free thinking for good. You are always already turned into a slave in your mind by your communist brothers and comrades.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that I have always explained my points in neat and coherent ways, avoiding self-contradictions and is always without personal attacks towards people who disagree with me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enough is enough, everybody is fed up with your presence here. Respect yourself and find your own proper place.

If anyone disagree, we can discuss and argue with each other.

Thank you.

With Regards
Kevin

Kevin
29-10-07, 11:17
Comrade Ke Wen,



Here, in regard to East turkestan movement, Im opposed to it in general for some reasons.

1)The formation of a East Turkestan will be a mono-racial state for Uyghurs majority. Some even adovacte a religious theocracy which is hostile to non-believers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ke Wen, there is a fundamental difference between sheer phantacy and fact. How can you prove that an East Turkestan will be a mono-racial state for Uyghurs by relying only on your own fabricated accusations? A mere speculation will spoil the tenancy of your argument, if it deserves being called an argument. You are not a prophet to foresee the future of East Turkistan. What you are doing here is nothing but to sell your untenable and rotten arguments to others to try in vain to convince them. All your arguments are merely illogical, because you have created such arguments that their conclusions are already implied in their premises. Put another way, the premises of your arguments presuppose the conclusions.

2) The people who adovocate the establishment of ETR either advocate violence or racially biased referendum where 40% of the population decide the entire fate of xinjiang and its population

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, non-sensical accusation. And again, how do you know it? How can prove it? First, by labelling Uyghurs as a people appealing to violence and terrorism, and then jumping to the conclusion that their state will inherently be violence-oriented? Oh, poor guy, you have got what you already put in your premise: baseless accusations, illogical argument and distorted way of reasoning.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) I oppose ethnic cleansing or involuntary deportation of Non-Uyghers out of Xinjiang. An 8 million population.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you oppose to ethnic cleansing, then why you turn an blind eye to your Chinese brothers who are precisely carrying out this inhuman project in East Turkestan? Are you not using double standard to the same issue? If so, it is you who are an utter and miserable hypocrite.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) I strongly oppose acts of terrorism, which some (not all) here perceive as freedom fighters, especially after the Beslan School crisis.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do not confuse the different issues. In order to prove that Uyghurs are engaging in terrorism, first, learn to base your arguments on sound and tangible evidence. Otherwise, stop preaching here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A historical truth that often neglected by the pro-independence poster here-Xinjiang is a home to many ethnicities, Indo Europeans, Mongols, Chinese and Uyghurs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right, that is why, during the second East Turkistan republic, Uyghurs, Mongols, Hui Muslims, Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs jointly created a strong army to fight against their common enemy: Chinese regime. If the chance allows and you will not die soon enough, then you will bear witness to the new joint resistance of these so called ethnic minorities against your brothers in the future, for they are all victims of Chinese rule. Their common destiny will unite them again more strongly than ever.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The end of the second ETR was an agreement made by ETR rulers with the communist governemnt in 1949, as opposed to some who claimed that the communist invaed their home militarily.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was an agreement signed under intimidation, constrains and pressure. So it can never be authentic. Besides, it does not represent the will of the people of East Turkistan.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I would advocate for China is pushing for greater degree of freedom in the country regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. This shall be done through talks and negotiation. Hence with the some token, I oppose any measure that is "out of the system", for instance, sabotage and terrorist attack which are done for the sake of opposing the regime.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sell this stingy propaganda to others. You are praising murders as "freedom-givers" because you have lost your own free thinking for good. You are always already turned into a slave in your mind by your communist brothers and comrades.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that I have always explained my points in neat and coherent ways, avoiding self-contradictions and is always without personal attacks towards people who disagree with me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enough is enough, everybody is fed up with your presence here. Respect yourself and find your own proper place.

If anyone disagree, we can discuss and argue with each other.

Thank you.

With Regards
Kevin
Good job.
The basic argument of yours is that my premises made regarding the East Turkestan Movement is false and without evidence.
The Pro-ETR movement is diverse and come in all shape and sizes. I merely mentioned some of their ideas. They do not necessary represent one singular organisation.
I need time to compile evidence as I have difficulty reading Chinese and might need help from my gf. A lot pro-ETA sites are in Chinese instead of English. I will get back to you point by point once it is done.

last but not least, I have NEVER stated such nonsense such as Uyghurs are appealing to violence. The Majority of Uyghurs are not ETR activists. Some ETR organisations advocate violence.

Thanks and See you soon.

Aries
29-10-07, 18:53
Wow! Since when you became not-that-good in Chinese? You said you are fluent in Chinese before, remember?? Now you having difficulty reading it?? Good to know that! So all you've been blattering here is nothing but hearsay and false accusation. How are going to prove what you learned is reliable? The websites that you cited here really make me laugh. Even that Wikipedia one, oh come on, even high school students do research in higher level than that. You just have this crazy fatasy about who you are and what you know. No body buys what you are selling here. So why don't you try to gain yourself some self-esteem by keeping your mouth shut and listen to what other people have to say? They know something that you don't. And you just have to admit it.



Good job.
The basic argument of yours is that my premises made regarding the East Turkestan Movement is false and without evidence.
The Pro-ETR movement is diverse and come in all shape and sizes. I merely mentioned some of their ideas. They do not necessary represent one singular organisation.
I need time to compile evidence as I have difficulty reading Chinese and might need help from my gf. A lot pro-ETA sites are in Chinese instead of English. I will get back to you point by point once it is done.

last but not least, I have NEVER stated such nonsense such as Uyghurs are appealing to violence. The Majority of Uyghurs are not ETR activists. Some ETR organisations advocate violence.

Thanks and See you soon.

Unregistered
29-10-07, 19:15
Dear friends,
It has been quite a while since I sent a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. I was polite and straightforward in asking that he sit down at dinner with me and some friends and talk about the situation in the PRC. Unfortunately, he ignored my sincere request for dialog.

Since actions speak louder than words, the Freedom's Herald website has been created and is now up and running. Again, my apologies for sitting out for so long, but since I have given them ample warning and an opportunity to avoid embarrasment, the time has come for the consequences to unfold.

At this website, there are no forums, but I have created a couple of mailing lists that used to be run from taklamakan.org, namely Uighur-L and SMongol-L.
Other mailing lists will be added as necessary and/or requested.

In addition to the mailing lists, there are some other plans and campaigns in the works.

3sPafXaHVhA

Please join Uighur-L (and the discussion) again at:
http://freedomsherald.org/mailman/listinfo/uighur-l_freedomsherald.org

For Freedom,
Jack Churchward
tikanchemenlik@freedomsherald.org

Dear, Sir

thanks a lot for everything you have done for Uighurs!i have never seen you in person ,but your name was in my heart since 1998 the time i was looking for information about Uighurs on the internet. i could not know how to express my personal gratitude to you.
however, it will not be an exaggeration that there are millions of Uighurs out there in ET who are with same feeling towards people who loves them and cares for them since Uighurs known for their profound love for their heroes as well as friends in need.

hope to see you one day and wish you the best of health and spirit. May Allah the allmighty God bless you!

keep up the good job,please. i have subscribed to the email list. looking forward to more and more fruitful progress.

with kindly regards,

another Uighur boy.

Kevin
02-11-07, 13:58
[quote=uygur.org]
1)The Turkic population of the Uyghuristan which possesses the same blood, language, tradition and religion were artificially divided into Uyghur, Khazak, Kyrgiz, Uzbek and Tatar by the Russian Red Imperialists.
2)Uyghurs and Han Chinese are not of the same race. Uyghurs is clearly a European race and look primarily like Western Europeans.
3)Historical records show that the Uyghurs have a history of more than 4000 years
4)The Uyghur power, prestige and culture developed over a long history and dominated Central Asia for more than 1000 years

[quote]

This is from http://www.uygur.org/enorg/history/uygurlar_kim.htm.
Upon receiving some criticism of poor research on Uyghur history I revisited some of the pro-separatist website and am totally fabbergasted by the pseudo-history of Uyghurs and Xinjiang as a whole.

Do you people agree with the interesting statements above?

Kevin
02-11-07, 23:52
Yo Kevin
If you wanted to actually engage in a constructive conversation/discussion, you should have listened to what the other posters said.

it is so obvious that your aim here is to disrupt things.

you had a chance to really engage in discussion, but instead you want to pick, pick, pick.

nobody believes you anymore, nobody should answer your questions because you are dense and committed to causing a fuss.

go bother someone else, you squandered your chance

bert

ps I'll ignore you if you try to rationalize your silly behavior or try to communicate, so just drop it.
In response to Aris accusation on my poor research on Uyghur history, i went to a pro-separatist site, so called your site to quote.
Anti-lier claimed that all my assumption about East turkistan movement are flase, yet he never tell me what it really is.
Anti-lier argued that by associating ETR with violence, Im stating a baseless assumption. Okay then what about the Uyghur terrorists trained by Taliban. US intelligence confirmed that they have been trained by Taliban and see U.S as an enemy state and are ready to strike targets in western China. UAA is fighting for their release to become "American".

East Turkestan Islamic Movement is the organisation that fights for a mono-racial and Islamic theocratic state. Hasan Mahsum, the leader of it was shot by Pakistan forces. Their trainee were caught by U.S forces and UAA is fighting for their releasal and fighting for them to become naturalised citizens. So am I right to say that UAA support terrorism in this aspect?

Im always paying attention to what other poster say but only anti-lier barely answered to me by saying all my premises are flase without evidence, not a very convincing attempt though. The rest either accuse me of enslaving Indian in the past or working as a Chicom instead. This makes civil communication impossible.

Do you think it is making a fuss to demand these answers?
Does UAA oppose violent means to achieve Independence?

ETIM is considered a terrorist organization by the governments of China, Kazakhstan, and the United States, as well as the United Nations. Why does UAA support ETIM which fights for a lslamic uyghur state rather than true multiracial democracy? Do you people see those military combatant as freedom fighters?

How do you achieve democracy in Xinjiang? A referendum? by whom? What do you see the future of the place as?

Are you going to deport Han, Hui and mongols?

And, there is a difference between disrupt and debate. Debate is about argument and evidence. Disrupting is about name calling.

jack II
06-11-07, 19:45
I hope you get a seat on one of the trains heading back to China.
You definitely don't get it now, but you will...

Kevin
07-11-07, 05:00
I hope you get a seat on one of the trains heading back to China.
You definitely don't get it now, but you will...
Sounds like the Chinese Exclusion Act in North America during the 20s.
Implementing it in China in the future?

jack II
07-11-07, 18:12
your trick did not work.
are you disappointed? upset? angry?
go cry to mommie

:p

everyone else, please join Uighur-L
http://freedomsherald.org/mailman/listinfo/uighur-l_freedomsherald.org

Kevin
07-11-07, 23:15
your trick did not work.
are you disappointed? upset? angry?
go cry to mommie

:p

everyone else, please join Uighur-L
http://freedomsherald.org/mailman/listinfo/uighur-l_freedomsherald.org
I dont get what you mean. Did the Chinese ambassador tell you the samething when you try to discuss or debate with him?
Explain your sarcasm?

bazghan
08-11-07, 12:51
Kevin:

It is sarcastically interesting that you did not get Jack's sarcasim. I believe it is not that you did not get it, it is that you pretend to be not getting it.
Cunny people play this game all the time.

anti-lier
08-11-07, 15:34
Comrade Kevin,

Look at the following website from which you can learn how ETIM, an alledged terrorist organization that has served as the backbone of your accusation, was made into scapegoat for the US-led “war on terror.”

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2004/32678.htm

Here is also the remark made by James Millward who asserts that “the U.S. government has unfortunately amplified the erroneous impressions conveyed by the PRC’s 2002 document on East Turkestan terrorism. When in August 2002 the U.S. embassy in Beijing announced the designation of the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM) as a terrorist organization associated with al Qaeda, its statement adopted much of the language of the PRC document and accused ETIM specifically of more than two hundred acts of terrorism resulting in 162 deaths and 440 injuries. In casting the announcement in these terms, the U.S. spokesman thus attributed to ETIM specifically all the violent incidents of the past decade in Xinjiang that the PRC document itself blames only on unnamed groups or on ETLO.”

From the following website, you also learn that it is not primarily ETIM that had formed a relation with the Taliba and al Qaeda, but the Chinese government that have been secretly supporting these “axes of evil” regimes and governments. Now it is up to your conscience to decide who is actually perpetrating terrorism, while slandering others who are precisely the victims of this heinous crime.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.net/al%20qaedas%20link%20to%20other%20countries/al_qaeda%20china%20tie.htm

That is why I kept saying that solid evidence could cure your obssesive-compulsive disorder, which is indeed politically motivated.

Unregistered
10-11-07, 01:19
I dont get what you mean. Did the Chinese ambassador tell you the samething when you try to discuss or debate with him?
Explain your sarcasm?

Look at what have your nation and people done to African americans in the Southern America and they are still trying to keep minority down.
And you come here to criticise other people.
That is sarcasm!

jack II
11-11-07, 12:52
Yo Kevin,
do you really think that you can order me around?
maybe you did not listen to your mommie when she tried to teach you manners or you forgot them because you are throwing a temper tantrum?


I dont get what you mean. Did the Chinese ambassador tell you the samething when you try to discuss or debate with him?
Explain your sarcasm?

Unregistered
12-11-07, 17:55
I hope you get a seat on one of the trains heading back to China.
You definitely don't get it now, but you will...

explain to us a little more about how this "trains heading back to China" scene will happen... I see "trains heading to xinjiang" happening now but how you guys can reverse it?

Aries
12-11-07, 22:15
huh? put you on the trains heading back to China? You gotta be kidding me! I will MAKE YOU WALK back to wherever you come from!!!


explain to us a little more about how this "trains heading back to China" scene will happen... I see "trains heading to xinjiang" happening now but how you guys can reverse it?

Unregistered
13-11-07, 00:00
huh? put you on the trains heading back to China? You gotta be kidding me! I will MAKE YOU WALK back to wherever you come from!!!

Try Telling Wang Zhen that.

Aries
13-11-07, 01:04
Your uncle wang is a dead man burning in hell. Why don't tell him yourself since you are going there anyway!


Try Telling Wang Zhen that.

Unregistered
13-11-07, 03:08
Your uncle wang is a dead man burning in hell. Why don't tell him yourself since you are going there anyway!

Uncle Wang restored peace, prosperity and stability in Xinjiang. All benefitted from his rule regardless of ethnicity.
People like you cannot understand. You people only know how to make bombs and stab people.

Aries
13-11-07, 12:06
Prosperity? to who? Who controls the government? Who has monopoly over local businesses? Who gets the most decent jobs?

Uyghurs can hardly make their ends meet because you Chinese are draining their blood like vampires. When Chinese communists took over East Turkistan in 1949, Uyghur economy was the highest, now it ranks at the dead bottom. 30% of Uyghur adults are employed, which is the highest rate in any developing country. Now you are shamelessly telling me that you brought prosperity to Uyghurs. And don’t you dare to mention peace! No conscious human being calls the murder of thousands of innocent people peace. It is called genocide. Only people like you who don’t have a brain in their head are stupid and shameless enough to turn a blind eye to it. But you know what, 十年河东,十年河西, things will turn around. You’ll see.

I know you don’t deserve my time. Next time don’t expect anything.




Uncle Wang restored peace, prosperity and stability in Xinjiang. All benefitted from his rule regardless of ethnicity.
People like you cannot understand. You people only know how to make bombs and stab people.

Unregistered
13-11-07, 12:36
Prosperity? to who? Who controls the government? Who has monopoly over local businesses? Who gets the most decent jobs?

Uyghurs can hardly make their ends meet because you Chinese are draining their blood like vampires. When Chinese communists took over East Turkistan in 1949, Uyghur economy was the highest, now it ranks at the dead bottom. 30% of Uyghur adults are employed, which is the highest rate in any developing country. Now you are shamelessly telling me that you brought prosperity to Uyghurs. And don’t you dare to mention peace! No conscious human being calls the murder of thousands of innocent people peace. It is called genocide. Only people like you who don’t have a brain in their head are stupid and shameless enough to turn a blind eye to it. But you know what, 十年河东,十年河西, things will turn around. You’ll see.

I know you don’t deserve my time. Next time don’t expect anything.
Blame China...Always blame the Chinaman..
Who build the infrastructures in XinJiang?
Who foot the the bill for minority education in university?
Who give them gaokao bonus points to university?
Who give them government jobs through government race quota?
Who give them exemptions from one child policy?
Who built the railways to Tibet and Xinjiang to gain access to the land-locked economies?

The reason why they are jobless is because alot them are not educated and alot dont know Chinese. Some prefer to farm and go work and drop out from school rather than studying hard. When we teach them chinese then you say we rob your culture. How do we protect you people in private companies when there is no race quota? Blame your culture instead.

So funny that you people are licking American Christian's boots who turn their sword of their crusader upon your brother's throat. If you believe that Amerikka can turn things around go ahead.

Unregistered
13-11-07, 12:44
http://www.cpd.com.cn/gb/gawh/2005-01/05/content_349148.htm

Unregistered
13-11-07, 14:29
http://www.cpd.com.cn/gb/gawh/2005-01/05/content_349148.htm

Hahahaha, you are an exact copy of your government, which is a great liar. It comes as no surprise that a liar can always be accomplice in a robbery. Keep these lies to yourself.

Unregistered
13-11-07, 16:37
Hahahaha, you are an exact copy of your government, which is a great liar. It comes as no surprise that a liar can always be accomplice in a robbery. Keep these lies to yourself.

what lies? did you read the book? or you just "know" it must be filled with lies. I always maintained that Xinjiang will always be Chinese land and uyghurs either leave or live with hans as a family. Nothing can be truer than that. BTW, I have nothing against uyghur or other minorities. I am half tibetan and my wife is a Hui. Chinese is a cultural group and not ethnic. Besides, minority policies in China are way better than those in the USA. You people are the liers to depict the minorities in China as being systematically discriminated. Once again, you need to read the book. It is fun!

Unregistered
13-11-07, 21:13
what lies? did you read the book? or you just "know" it must be filled with lies. I always maintained that Xinjiang will always be Chinese land and uyghurs either leave or live with hans as a family. Nothing can be truer than that. BTW, I have nothing against uyghur or other minorities. I am half tibetan and my wife is a Hui. Chinese is a cultural group and not ethnic. Besides, minority policies in China are way better than those in the USA. You people are the liers to depict the minorities in China as being systematically discriminated. Once again, you need to read the book. It is fun!
They dont listen. They would rather believe Rebiya Kadeer, who was a former communist but now a uyghur "human right activist". Most of them have never been to China and only believe in those nonsense.

jack II
14-11-07, 22:44
Hi,
Thanks for showing us your agenda and the desperation to maintain your delusion of control.
You see, the crux of the matter is that the CCP will not be able to continue to control what they already have, much less have dominance in the region. All your angry threats and rhetoric will not change that.
I have an example of your supposed superiority, see below:
tLAqSHg7DgE

Just think, a bunch of part-timers put the government of the world's most populous nation to shame.
how do you think you rate?

Unregistered
15-11-07, 12:59
Very good example of persistant and effective campaign against the evil.

Good job, Jack, and good answer.


Hi,
Thanks for showing us your agenda and the desperation to maintain your delusion of control.
You see, the crux of the matter is that the CCP will not be able to continue to control what they already have, much less have dominance in the region. All your angry threats and rhetoric will not change that.
I have an example of your supposed superiority, see below:
tLAqSHg7DgE

Just think, a bunch of part-timers put the government of the world's most populous nation to shame.
how do you think you rate?

Unregistered
15-11-07, 13:01
Hi,
Thanks for showing us your agenda and the desperation to maintain your delusion of control.
You see, the crux of the matter is that the CCP will not be able to continue to control what they already have, much less have dominance in the region. All your angry threats and rhetoric will not change that.
I have an example of your supposed superiority, see below:
tLAqSHg7DgE

Just think, a bunch of part-timers put the government of the world's most populous nation to shame.
how do you think you rate?

"delusion of control" already made you guys cry victim like babies, imagin how "true control" will do. Again, China haters will always be China haters. But, you know what, you can do nothing about our "delusion of control" except for getting high from a failed business venture. BTW, all this shit has nothing to do with CCP. Xinjiang was incorporated into China two hundred years before there was CCP. Playing CCP card is just too convenient, right? I envision in 50 years, uyghurs and other ethic groups will be living prosperously in Xinjiang and busy making a good living for their families. Uyghurs overseas will be moaning in the dark, forgotten corners because China haters get tired of playing uyghur card against China and have moved onto something else.

Unregistered
15-11-07, 13:03
"delusion of control" already made you guys cry victim like babies, imagin how "true control" will do. Again, China haters will always be China haters. But, you know what, you can do nothing about our "delusion of control" except for getting high from a failed business venture. BTW, all this shit has nothing to do with CCP. Xinjiang was incorporated into China two hundred years before there was CCP. Playing CCP card is just too convenient, right? I envision in 50 years, uyghurs and other ethic groups will be living prosperously in Xinjiang and busy making a good living for their families. Uyghurs overseas will be moaning in the dark, forgotten corners because China haters get tired of playing uyghur card against China and have moved onto something else.

BTW, I have nothing against bashing CCP. :-)

Unregistered
15-11-07, 13:22
BTW, I have nothing against bashing CCP. :-)

One questions to Jack II:

Have you ever thought about what you are really proposing here? Driving 5 millions hans (maybe Huis also) out of xinjiang means what to you? I guess just like a "quick victory" like Bush imagined in Iraq, right? Hans started moving to Xinjiang hundreds of years before the CCP took over China. Yes, hans moving to Xinjiang has excelerated since the start of modernization in China. But Xinjiang is part of China as recogonized by all nations in the world, so what's wrong with it? Lack of freedom and human rights is a universal problem in China and not unique to uyghurs. Is it acceptable to other nations to have parts of the country to break away because the government and the polies are bad? Is it ok for California to break away because a shit head in the whitehouse now?

Think Jack, think!

Unregistered
15-11-07, 13:37
Prosperity? to who? Who controls the government? Who has monopoly over local businesses? Who gets the most decent jobs?

Uyghurs can hardly make their ends meet because you Chinese are draining their blood like vampires. When Chinese communists took over East Turkistan in 1949, Uyghur economy was the highest, now it ranks at the dead bottom. 30% of Uyghur adults are employed, which is the highest rate in any developing country. Now you are shamelessly telling me that you brought prosperity to Uyghurs. And don’t you dare to mention peace! No conscious human being calls the murder of thousands of innocent people peace. It is called genocide. Only people like you who don’t have a brain in their head are stupid and shameless enough to turn a blind eye to it. But you know what, 十年河东,十年河西, things will turn around. You’ll see.

I know you don’t deserve my time. Next time don’t expect anything.

Aries,
Just want to point one mistake in you comments. Your dady George W Bush calls the murder of thousands of people "peace". Go argue with him!

Unregistered
15-11-07, 14:26
One questions to Jack II:

Have you ever thought about what you are really proposing here? Driving 5 millions hans (maybe Huis also) out of xinjiang means what to you? I guess just like a "quick victory" like Bush imagined in Iraq, right? Hans started moving to Xinjiang hundreds of years before the CCP took over China. Yes, hans moving to Xinjiang has excelerated since the start of modernization in China. But Xinjiang is part of China as recogonized by all nations in the world, so what's wrong with it? Lack of freedom and human rights is a universal problem in China and not unique to uyghurs. Is it acceptable to other nations to have parts of the country to break away because the government and the polies are bad? Is it ok for California to break away because a shit head in the whitehouse now?

Think Jack, think!



we are going independent that is it baby.....why is it so necessary to the chinese to have ET since the locals dislike them so much??? what is the meaning of this shameless act???

well i think it is a territorial hunger for power and expansion...i remember one chinese teacher told me that the present japanese are the childeren of great han people and they migerated in xi huang di`s (chin xi huang) time.one and a half billion chinese totalitarians would bring the world to its knees. they are more dangerous than bunch of islamist radicals...

just think how it all started in germany......we are playing politics most of the time and blaming it only on the communists by mentioning how much the ordinary chinese suffering and disliking their government..while the truth shows us otherwise....

Unregistered
15-11-07, 14:50
we are going independent that is it baby.....why is it so necessary to the chinese to have ET since the locals dislike them so much??? what is the meaning of this shameless act???

well i think it is a territorial hunger for power and expansion...i remember one chinese teacher told me that the present japanese are the childeren of great han people and they migerated in xi huang di`s (chin xi huang) time.one and a half billion chinese totalitarians would bring the world to its knees. they are more dangerous than bunch of islamist radicals...

just think how it all started in germany......we are playing politics most of the time and blaming it only on the communists by mentioning how much the ordinary chinese suffering and disliking their government..while the truth shows us otherwise....

I hope you have finished smoking your joint and can focus now. it is good you are showing your true colors by bringing up your deep hatred toward all Chinese, all one and half billion of us. I encourage more of this type of heard spilling comments. Regarding "going independant", well, you have right to imagine whatever you want to when you are high. Again, I like your comments and I think you should speak up more.

Unregistered
15-11-07, 14:57
we are going independent that is it baby.....why is it so necessary to the chinese to have ET since the locals dislike them so much??? what is the meaning of this shameless act???

well i think it is a territorial hunger for power and expansion...i remember one chinese teacher told me that the present japanese are the childeren of great han people and they migerated in xi huang di`s (chin xi huang) time.one and a half billion chinese totalitarians would bring the world to its knees. they are more dangerous than bunch of islamist radicals...

just think how it all started in germany......we are playing politics most of the time and blaming it only on the communists by mentioning how much the ordinary chinese suffering and disliking their government..while the truth shows us otherwise....

BTW, my first glance of your comments was very quick so I thought you were talking about US invasion of Iraq. I almost replied wrong topic.

Unregistered
15-11-07, 16:25
I hope you have finished smoking your joint and can focus now. it is good you are showing your true colors by bringing up your deep hatred toward all Chinese, all one and half billion of us. I encourage more of this type of heard spilling comments. Regarding "going independant", well, you have right to imagine whatever you want to when you are high. Again, I like your comments and I think you should speak up more.


first of all please this is not china just keep it in mind before you try to acuse sb of being a racist... i do not believe the majority of the chinese people would go against their dictators rather than supporting their expantionism...it has nothing to do with racism i wrote what i observed and what i think about the situation in china...as u may know that many western countries believe this gradual democracy crap could work in china and i just mentioned my thoughts thats all .....



but again i dunno why i even tried to answer you on this one ...

Unregistered
15-11-07, 17:13
first of all please this is not china just keep it in mind before you try to acuse sb of being a racist... i do not believe the majority of the chinese people would go against their dictators rather than supporting their expantionism...it has nothing to do with racism i wrote what i observed and what i think about the situation in china...as u may know that many western countries believe this gradual democracy crap could work in china and i just mentioned my thoughts thats all .....



but again i dunno why i even tried to answer you on this one ...

you answered because we removed all the politically correct bullshit and talked openly and frankly. The way I see it, struggling for uyghur independence will only bring suffering to uyghur people and it will only be a nuisance to China. Tibet has a much stronger position in gaining independance than uyghur yet Dalai Lama has already given up on this idea. I call for the rethinking of the uyghur exile group's struggle and joining in with the demacrats to struggle for freedom and rule of law in China instead of independance. Don't you want to spend your life on something more meaningful than an empty idea?

You know what, before long we will be together singing and sharing a joint! What a dream!

Unregistered
16-11-07, 00:48
you answered because we removed all the politically correct bullshit and talked openly and frankly. The way I see it, struggling for uyghur independence will only bring suffering to uyghur people and it will only be a nuisance to China. Tibet has a much stronger position in gaining independance than uyghur yet Dalai Lama has already given up on this idea. I call for the rethinking of the uyghur exile group's struggle and joining in with the demacrats to struggle for freedom and rule of law in China instead of independance. Don't you want to spend your life on something more meaningful than an empty idea?

You know what, before long we will be together singing and sharing a joint! What a dream!

They will not fight for democracy for China.
They will always hate China and Chinese because they are not uyghurs and they are not muslims. This has nothing to do whether China is rich or poor, liberal or authoritarian.

For them talk about human rights is about wearing Adida shirts or New Balance shoes. It is cool and fashionable. It can draw some sympathey from American and Europeans who dont know a thing about China.

Whether the uyghurs end up in bloodshed or what so ever it is none of their business. They dont really care. They are cyber warriors outside China who pay no price for what so ever in China. They know they wont be affected.

But these people are a minority among peace loving uyghurs, but them still think they are heros.

Unregistered
16-11-07, 01:07
Hi,
Thanks for showing us your agenda and the desperation to maintain your delusion of control.
Just think, a bunch of part-timers put the government of the world's most populous nation to shame.
how do you think you rate?
Show us a few uninhabited buildings and implying a delusion of control?
Did you turn on your TV during the time of Hurricane Katrina and see a break down of civilisation?
When there is disasters in China the PLA soldiers are always there. When the walls break down, they fill the human dams of flesh.
But when the victims are of a certain race of income group you guys take a long damn bloody time to come up with real actions.

Unregistered
16-11-07, 10:40
Show us a few uninhabited buildings and implying a delusion of control?
Did you turn on your TV during the time of Hurricane Katrina and see a break down of civilisation?
When there is disasters in China the PLA soldiers are always there. When the walls break down, they fill the human dams of flesh.
But when the victims are of a certain race of income group you guys take a long damn bloody time to come up with real actions.

lmao excuse me i am just a 9ys old

Unregistered
16-11-07, 10:55
lmao excuse me i am just a 9ys old

damn, forget about smoking joint I just said. Joint is bad, and girls, TV... go back to your room! BTW, do you have an older sister?

Unregistered
18-11-07, 02:18
Thread Closed.
There is no logical basis for Independence movement.

jack II
18-11-07, 12:05
Hi
You spread so much out so thin that even a 9 yr-old can see through it.
So what is the question?

PS the part-timers included Mongolians, Tibetans, Taiwanese, Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbek, and even a few token anjis.

PPS Your last posting again demonstrated your 'delusion of control'

Unregistered
18-11-07, 22:57
Hi
You spread so much out so thin that even a 9 yr-old can see through it.
So what is the question?

PS the part-timers included Mongolians, Tibetans, Taiwanese, Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbek, and even a few token anjis.

PPS Your last posting again demonstrated your 'delusion of control'


Other issues aside, how can a 9 year old be allowed to get onto a hatred filled forum like this one? Some parent control please! Taiwanese? You mean chinese from taiwan? They count about 90% in my church but they all call themselves chinese. Maybe you know more about it, but as far as I know, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and Uzbek population in Xinjiang doesn't support uyghur independant movement. Have you ever met a Kazakhs exile from Xinjiang? Just be curious.

Unregistered
19-11-07, 05:04
Other issues aside, how can a 9 year old be allowed to get onto a hatred filled forum like this one? Some parent control please! Taiwanese? You mean chinese from taiwan? They count about 90% in my church but they all call themselves chinese. Maybe you know more about it, but as far as I know, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and Uzbek population in Xinjiang doesn't support uyghur independant movement. Have you ever met a Kazakhs exile from Xinjiang? Just be curious.

They teach their children hatred from young.
Look! We have 4000 light years of history! We came to central asia and spread civlisation to the world until the Chinese came who took away our freedom, equality, direct democracy, human rights, wealth, GDP production, laws of constitution, rights of humanitarian intervention, Eu conventions and charters, freedom of thoughts, beliefs and religions, freedom from poverty, right to bear arms and most importantly a developed world of uyghurs only nation with a flourishing democracy and a world superpower.

Tactics Number 1: Every problem, or seemlingly problem in China is a kind of vile supression against Uyghurs from the han Chinese and Chinese goverment.

Tactics Number 2: Every Uyghur who went to other province to work is a kind of involuntary kidnap done by the Chinese official and chinese people.

Tactic Number 3: Every poor farmer of Uyghr decent is due to the treacherous, dishonet and discriminant chinese government and Chinese people, even though some chinese are poorer.

Tactics Number 4: Every convicted terrorists in Xinjiang is not a terrorist.
They are freedom fighters trained in Taliban, fought with chechens make bombs in xinjiang bus, but wrongfully caught by Us marines in Guatamala.

Last but not least, if you disagree with any of the above, you are a bloody chicom stinking Chinese dog, bare faced liar with no sense of humanity.

jack II
21-11-07, 15:47
Hi again,

For the edification of the readers, who are the 'They' that are 'hated-filled from young' ?

Are 'They' the Chinese folks that look down on non-Chinese as lesser humans? The ones that on one hand call other folks 'Chinese minorities' and insist they are Chinese, but yet they are backward? Sounds like a double-standard to me.

If the 'They' are the Uyghur people, then you goofed up. If it was ok for JFK to say "Ich bin ein Berliner" ("I am a citizen of Berlin"), then I would say "Ich bin ein Uyghurstan"
Send me an email if you don't understand, I might respond if you are polite.

tikan
tikanchemenlik@gmail.com

Unregistered
21-11-07, 20:38
Hi again,
Are 'They' the Chinese folks that look down on non-Chinese as lesser humans?
Well, how did you get that impression? Isn't that what the separatists preach?

What do you perceive as looking other people as lesser human and how is that reflected in the general Chinese population is China?

"They" refer to exactly those separatists here, not the general Uyghur population. They dont represent an entire population. It is pretty common sense.

Well, Americans influence are all over the world. The way how they handle a competitor is to breed another enemy of the establishement. So it is obvious that they are not only "German" but also everywhere else. Saddam was supported by US against Iran. Osama was supported by US against Soviets. And if you support Uyghur extremists now, put your fingers crossed that it wont backfire on another day.