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View Full Version : Re: Dr. Mair's Take on Tarim Mummies



Turdi Ghoja
09-09-07, 22:31
Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
Thanks,

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 00:20
Hormetlik Turdi Ghoja,

Men <The Tarim Mummies> digen kitapni oqighan. Mening chushenginim boyiche u kitaptimu aptur hazirqi uyghurlarning shu Tarim Mummies liri bilen bolghan qandashlighini yoqqa chiqarghan emestek hem hazirqi uyghurlarning hazir Central Asiada yashawatqan ethnic turkumler ichide shu Mummies largha genetically olarak eng chong warisliq qilghanlar ikenligini yazghandek qiliwedi.

Bilmidim yaki men hata oqiwaldimmu?




Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
Thanks,

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

Qaraburan!
10-09-07, 12:40
Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!



Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
Thanks,

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 13:16
The Tarim Basin/Uyghuristan Mummies

In recent years, the Tarim Basin mummy finds have spurred further speculation.


Four thousand years ago, there were ancient oasis towns in the Tarim Basin, near the end of the "Silk Road" in what is now the Xinjiang (aka Xin Zhiang) region of NW China on the edge of the Gobi Desert. They flourished for at least 1,500 years, and there are indications that they survived as a culture even into the second century.


About the turn of the 20th century, a few well-preserved mummies were discovered in the area by early European explorers of the Silk Road (including Aurel Stein and Sven Hedin). They had been preserved naturally by the saline soil and extreme aridity of the Taklamakan desert region. They are believed to have been buried between c. 4000-2000 BC.




"The Bohemian Burgher" - a Tarim mummy photographed by Aurel Stein, c. 1910


The remains are Caucasoid. Many had long red or blond hair, and features that could be those of modern Europeans. They were largely ignored at the time because they were considered atypical, perhaps just a few traders or wanderers who had been in the region and perished.


Further exploration was put on hold by World War I, followed by years of unrest, civil war and then WW II. Following that came the Communist revolution and regime, and the closing to the West of many of China's archaeological treasures.


However, in the 1970s, Chinese exchanges with the West became more open. More of the mummies began to come to light, buried together in large cemeteries. The principal work was conducted by Wang Binhua in 1978, who excavated the cemetery at Qizilchoqa. As China became more open in terms of trade and cultural exchange, more was learned about the ancient inhabitants of the area.


Victor H. Mair, an Austrian Oriental scholar, was in the region's museum when he came across some of the bodies. Struck by their appearance, particularly that of one mummy (who according to Mair, strongly resembled his own brother, David), he began a search to seek their origins and whether they had any contact with early Chinese civilization.



"Cherchen Man"


Eventually, he enlisted J. P. Mallory, a Proto Indo-European language scholar, Paolo Francalacci a DNA specialist, and other specialists in clothing and related fields, and a considerable amount of work was done, including analysis of both new and existing finds. (See the ( Bibliography for their book, "The Tarim Mummies".)


The colorful fabrics found included felt, plaited wool, and what we now call tartan. The weave of their clothes is identical to that of "clo mor", the twill tweed and tartan weave used by the Gaels. In fact, one of the females is wearing a tartan dress! Here are some interesting fabrics. (These are covered in depth in "The Mummies of Urumchi" by Elizabeth Wayland Barber, the cover of which is shown below.)




Here are some pieces of tartan from the sites - the top is an actual fragment, the second is a reproduction.






There are some female burials with trappings that may indicate a high social status, perhaps of a religious nature.


One of the older females is wearing an extremely tall conical hat, reminiscent of a "witch's hat" of yore. Tall, conical caps and helmets were worn in historic times by the Celtic aristocracy, and in Gaelic Ireland, tall conical hats were worn by the high chiefs and nobility until at least 1719, as witnessed by portraits of that date. A very similar style was worn by rustic women until the 19th century in Wales, and still constitutes women's "traditional" garb at folk festivals. The design may possibly have come down over the centuries, though what its significance may have been we have no way of ascertaining.


The precise origins of the mummies remain unresolved, but Mallory and Mair postulate that these early Bronze Age settlers originated on the north-west shore of the Black Sea, and that they may have been part of or related to the Afanasevo culture, which originated on the easternmost part of the Eurasian Steppe and highlands north of East Central Asia. (These steppes extend from the mouth of the Danube River along the north shore of the Black Sea, across the lower Volga to the east as far as the Altai Mountains.) They may have been Proto-Tocharians, but there is no way to prove that at present, since they left no written records.


The Tocharians are the most easterly known Indo-European speaking people, and their language is now extinct.


We only learned of the Tocharians in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as a result of finds of ancient manuscripts from the region.


There appears to have originally been two distinct Tocharian languages, Eastern ("A") and Western ("B"). Some scholars hold that only the Eastern should be called Tocharian. Today, the name for the Western form is sometimes referred to as Kuchean. Their nearest linguistic relative appears to be Hittite, which was anciently spoken in Asia Minor (c. 1600 to 1100 BC).


Tocharian A seems to have died out in daily usage, becoming a liturgical language like Sanskrit, while Tocharian B seems to have survived longer. The texts include religious liturgy, monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, caravan permits, medical and magical texts, and a love poem.


Tocharian seems to have died out after c. 840 AD. At that time, the Uyghurs (aka Uighurs) were expelled from Mongolia by the Kirghiz, and retreated to the Tarim Basin. Tocharian texts have been found translated into Uighur.


The genetic evidence, as well as the appearance of light hair and eyes among the modern Uyghur, seems to support the Uyghur contention that they are descended from the Tarim Basin people. See the article by Mark Dickens, the Wikipedia articles on Tocharian, and the Uyghurs for details.


The ancient Chinese seem to have been fascinated with a group or groups of people on the peripheries of their domain, whom they term "Yuezhi." These may refer to the Tocharians, and/or the earlier Tarim Basin people.


If so, what little we can know of the Tarim people and their culture beyond the physical remains can be gleaned from the Chinese manuscripts, in the way that much of our knowledge of the Celts in ancient times is gleaned from Classical commentators.


They seem to have been warriors, herdsmen, and traders, and been highly skilled in medicine. The few clues to their language are in the form of words that appear to be transliterated in the Chinese manuscripts. Their physical appearance seems to have had Caucasoid traits, including red hair (the Chinese described them as being like red monkeys), and light colored eyes.


They appear to have died out in antiquity, and no recognizable remnant cultures have survived, though as noted, the present-day native Uyghurs firmly believe themselves descended from them.


The mummies may represent an Indo-European group, though we cannot of course determine their language from the remains. However,their physical appearance, clothing and accouterments strongly resemble those depicted in extant paintings of the later Tocharians, a nearby Indo-European speaking community known from written and pictorial remains. It is fair to postulate the possibility of some degree of linguistic affinity, based on the similarity in cultural aspects and clothing, as well as physical appearance.



Tocharian Knights (c. 6th century AD fresco, Qizil, Tarim Basin)


These and other period depictions of Tocharians resemble the Tarim mummies. These may be the "Knights with Long Swords" mentioned in Chinese accounts. All depictions show light hair and light eye color. These men are dressed in Sassanian style. These frescoes were found with notations in Tocharian and Sanskrit apparently made by the painters.



Buddhist Monks


A picture of a blue-eyed, red-haired, and large-nosed Buddhist monk, with an obviously Asian colleague, from Bezaklik, Eastern Tarim Basin, c. 9th-10th century AD)


There is also the possibility that these people may have introduced the chariot, and possibly bronze-working to the Chinese.


Unfortunately, many of the fabric and DNA samples were confiscated at the last minute from Mair's party by Chinese authorities. However, due to the courage of a Chinese colleague who took the risk of slipping them some of the confiscated samples as they were leaving, some DNA tests were able to be completed. The sample showed genetic relationships to present-day Europeans, including Swedes, Finns, Tuscans, Corsicans and Sardinians. It also seems as though the Uyghurs do indeed have some of their genetic make-up, not surprising given that these otherwise Mongol people sometimes have reddish hair, and green eyes.


There remains considerable ambivalence among the Chinese political and scientific leadership on how to treat these people, both because of political considerations with the current indigenous Uyghur people, and how much {if at all} these Caucasoid people may have influenced Chinese development. It has the possibility of upsetting the Chinese official history of development in "splendid isolation" from the West.


If true, it matters little, because the Chinese obviously came up with much of their own culture. If they borrowed some useful techniques or technologies, they wouldn't be the first to do so - and of course, an exchange could have gone both ways, as it has in more historic times.


For more information, see: Xinjiang, the Tarim Basin mummies, and the Tocharians














Over the past couple of years, I ready several articles that mentioned professor Victor Mair's comment on Taklamakan Mummies. Most recent one is posted on this phorum last week under the title "Genetic analysisi of Uyghurs." In responce to his views expressed in these articles, I wrote the following commentary which I intend to share with him and other scholars who are interested in Taklamkan Mummies and East Turkistan, because I feel it is our responsibility to point out misconceptions about us. Since this goes out to scholars on the subject, I could not afford to have any information inconsistant with the facts or miss out any important information. So, I would appreciate if any one, expecially people who have experties in this area, provide imput. One question I am particularly interested is were there any weapons buried with the mummies?
Thanks,

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Taklamakan Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. Some people may interpret some of his comments as being racist. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, perhaps the Germans, than finding the truth about those mummies. As a witness to the “scene”, I want to point out a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century, certainly not during lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. In fact the word “Caucasian,” as I understand, was derived from the name of an area right outside the north gate of the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are formed by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. The next question is “did the people of the 11th century Kashgar have moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar. Roughly half of the Uyghur population today lives in these southern areas.

Historical evidence do support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kindom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out. There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, may be because they could not speak for themselves so that Dr. Mair could leave out inconvenient facts about them. For example, those mummies look as diverse as today's living population of Tarim Basin, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Dr.Mair perhaps knows that sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only assume that they must have a meaning in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy peoples lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

As to Dr. Mair’s theory about the Chinese characters, I believe, as much as I hate to, that the Chinese are completely capable of coming up with a writing system without the help of Westerners. I would have to lose my dignity if I try to take that away from the Chinese even though they stole my homeland and oppress my people. If I could not afford to acknowledge certain facts I would have to feel sorry for myself. If the ancient Chinese writing system shared anything with others, the ancient Egyptian writing could be the closest candidate, because both systems relied on pictures. But, using pictures to depict words is an obvious thing to try. Most likely, both peoples came up with the idea independently. Besides, if the Chinese got the idea from the Caucasians lived in Tarim Basin, first there had to be meaningful contact between China and Tarim Basin, which did not occur until Zhang Qian’s trip to Tarim Basin in 138 AD. The Chinese learned to write long before that. Besides, we do not know if the Tarim Basin mummies knew how to write during the time the Chinese invented their writing system.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 13:18
http://www.hiddenglen.com/index.php/History/Chap1

Unregistered
10-09-07, 14:00
Engilis tilni bilmeidighan birsi ohximamsiz? shatiraqlap pikir berixning aldida engilis tilini bilidighan biresige makalini oqutup endin yizing. Kalladise Paqaq dimei.







Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

Unregistered
10-09-07, 14:38
Menmu Uyghur digen ajayip milletken dep qalimen. Bir maqalini oqup uni chushenmey turup pikir bayan qilidighanlar bizde xeli kop. Pizachilik sewyisi bar ademler doktor unwanliqlarni oqutimen deydighanlarmu xeli kop. Towendikini yazghan adem del mushundaqlarning tipik misalidur. Bundaqlarning aghizidin aldirap kelidighan gepler "Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini" din ibaret. Bundaqlar kotining echilip yurgenligini uqmay bashqilargha ishtan keymepsen dep aghrinip yuriydu.


Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

Unregistered
10-09-07, 15:15
"First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not in China until 19th Century,"

"I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times."

Me Turding makalisida iqbir Uyghurning ghururigha tegidighan suz kurmidim! Exqe Turdi Uyghurni qughdap Dr. Mairning "Tarim is part of China from ancient time" digan gipige qarshi pakitlebilen suz kiptu, buning neri sizning ghururighizgha tiketi? siz belkim bir englisqini qala bilidighan edamkensiz yaki bir eyqi yaman edemkensiz Turding yazgha makalisini kurelmei mezmunisining burap Englis tilni bilmaidighan ademlege hata ang bermekqisiz. sizdek ademni xitayning ghalqisi deidu!!!!!

Some advice to you: Read thoroughfully and think tiwce before make any comments. Don't make a fool of yourself!!



Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

Unregistered
10-09-07, 16:56
Turdi ependi doktur bolghanliki uqun uning degenlirini torghra dep bashkilarni "piziqi" din "piziqi" gha qikirip eyiplex logikidiki "nopuzga murajet kilix" (appeal to authority) hataliki bolidu. Pikirda bolupmu mana muxundak mawhom dunyadiki pikirda uni kimning kilganlikigha amas balki uni kandak kilghanlikka karax akilaniliktur. Sal igir bisik bolayli, buradarlar.

Emeliyetta Turdi ependining bu yazmisini makala diyixka bolmaydu. U yazmisida Mair ning karaxliriga raddiya biriman nurgun yangiltak wa hissiyatka mayil pikirlarni kilgan. Asli bundak qong bir temini sal toxtilip yizix kirak idi. Towanda uning yazganliriga kiskiqa karap bakayli:

"Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground."

Uyghurlarning Ariyan irkiga tawalikini diguqilarning iqida Mair tunjisi amas, ham ahirkisimu amas. Bu uzndin biri talax tartix kiliniwatkan bir zil masila. Agar xundak bolup kalsa ham buni Tarimdin tepilgan wa tipilidigan jasatlar ispatlisa, buni nokul irkqilik diyix kirakmo? Uyghurlar Ariyan irkiga tawa bolsa nima yamni bar? Turdi apandi nima uqun buningdin xunqa urkiydikina? Huddi siz aytkandak, Mairmu ilmiy usul wa akliy hulasa yoli arkilik Uyghurlani Ariyanlarga qitiwatidu. Likin bu pakit (agar xundak diyix togra kalganda) yanila Uyghurlaning wa watinimiz xarkiy Turkistanning azaldin hitayning kolida bolup bakmiganlikini ispatlaxka dahli kilmayttigu? Uning ustiga bu hitay arhilogliri wa hokumiti ta hazirgiqa itirap kilmaywatkan bir pakit idighu? Dal hitaylar Mair watinimizdiki Uyghurlardin DNA siniki uqun algan kanni qigridin qikarmay, musadira kiliwalgan idigu? Dal hitaylar biz bilan Mairning milliti bolgan Girmanlar otturisidiki yirak “uruk tukkandarqiliktin” olgidak korkkan idigu? Amdi nima dap Mair bu baglinixni ispatliganliki uqun bu yarda ayipliniska duqar boluxi kirak?

"There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west."

Agar tarix hakikatan “tarixqi bolmigan” Turdi apandining diginidak bolsa, bizni ham ghrap ham xarkka qatkan gayat zor Yipak Yolidiki idiya almixix harikitini kandak quxinix mumkin? Toghra, mining kulikimga Uyghur bilan hitay tarixtin biri alaka kilmigan digan gap bakla hox yakidu, amma tarihta Uyghurlarning hitaylar bilan malom qaklik dairida alakida bolghanlikiga koz yumiwilix tarihka uyghunma? Siyasi kizginlik bilan ilmiy tatkikat bazida tokunixip kalidu. Bizgu bu yarda konglimizni hox ititp olturamiz, amma qing yarda tutuxsak hakningmu bir katar karaxliri bar.

Yana “contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD” deyix Turdi apadining Uyghur madaniyiti bilan xitay madaniyiti otturisida taki 19-asirgiqa hiqkandak alaka bolup bakmigan digan pikrini inkar kilidu. Bu zit pikirghu?

"Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today."

Muxu gapning ozila bizdiki irqiy trkiplarning murakkaplikini quxandurup birixka yitip axidu. Undakta bu murakkaplikning yiltizi nima? Buni “witness” kilix bilanla quxandurup bargili bolamdu? Bu bir ilmiy pozitsiya wa mitodma?


"That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point."

Man Turdi apandining bu hokmiga koxiliman. Likin ix buninglik bilanla putmaydu. Buning uqun yana talay yillar arhilogiyilik takxurux paaliyiti watinimiz xarki turkistanda ilip birilixi kirak. Xunga, biz yana Mair we yana baxka arhiloglarning takxuruxliriga mohtajmiz.

"Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers."

Buni man baxka bir yardinmu muxundak korgan. Miningqa amaliyat Turdi apandi digandin sal parklinidu. Doktur Mair bir sohbatta Tarimdiki mumya adamlirini tatkik kilip kilip anga ahirida ozining tatkikatining natijisidin kongli yirim bolghanlikini iytkan. Yani Tarimning asli ahalisining ahiri birip Ariyanlardin bolup qikkanliki uning kutmigan yiridin qikkan, qunki bundak bolganda unig karixiqa bu Yawropa irkidikilarning ozlirining kengeymiqikini dengiz yolinining iqilixidin burunla baxlanganlikini bilduridikan. Mayli nimila bolmisun, Uyghurlarning itnik tarkiwining iniklinip qikixi bizning siyasiy dawayimizdiki intayin bir nazuk wa aqkuxluk bir masila bolupla kalmastin yana putkul ottura asiyadiki Uyghurlarni oz iqiga algan halklarning axu karanggu tarihini yorutuxtiki muhim bir nohtidur.

Yigip iytkanda, man Turdi apandining oziga anqa tonuxluk bolmigan bu hildiki timilarda tihimu sogukkanlik bilan izdinixini umit kiliman.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 17:25
Nurghun yillarning aldida, Dr Kahar Barat ning Harvard tiki yitekqi uztazi mundak bir jumle sozni kilghandek bolghan. Yeni "Jiang ze min" Harvard kelgen mezgilde, Mummies hekkide bolghan suallarge jawaban; tarihqilar siler mummies hekkide nime disenglar boliwiridu dep jawap bergenlikini dep, miyikida kulup ketken idi. Shu qagdiki bu kishining bu jiang zi minning sozige karita kilghan teleppuzi karap; men gherip ning Mummies hekkidiki tetkikati belkim hittaylarning kutken yiridin qikip kalghan ohshaydu dep perez kilghan idim. Undin qungkurrak yiri bolsa Karat Barat bu kishining kuzutushini inikrak bilishi mumkin.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 19:00
Sen nochi bolsang isming bilen yaze, sen bilen bir tutushup baqayli.

ismingni yazalmisang, dimek senmu tayinliq ikensen. ozeng bilidighan ishlargha qayta-qayta oylap, 7 qetim oylighandin kiyin bir qetim pikir yurguzishke tirish. bolmisa sendek xitayperes ghalchilarni biz kop korgen. dawamliq mushu meydanni sen dellal qalaymiqan qilisen, ismingni sorisa ghippide yoqap ketisen. sening uyghurliqingmu natayinghu deymen.


Uyghur degen ajayip millitken, düshmenge ikki qolini egiz kötürüpla turghan ademlernimu öz ichige sighdurup keteleydighan. Bu adem bu yerde neme yazsa bolidu.Emma milletning ghururigha tegip, tajawuzchilarning nenigha qaymaq sürtse bolmaydu.Uyghurlar bu ademni milletchi, inqilapchi deydiken, undaq bolsa milletchi, inqilapchi degenlerning terichi, ucheychi degenlerdin neme perqi qalidu?Tarix xitay enenisi boyiche bolghandimu, öz millitining paydisi tereptin bayan qilinishi kerek.emma bu adem ichimizde yashaydu xaterjem, Düshmenge shepe bergini bergen.Bu ademning gin tetqiqati, Uyghur tarixi(yaki uyghur atiliwatqanlarning ejdatliri), Xitayning siyasiy oyunliri, tarixning kim teripidin nime üchün yezilidighanliqi, millet we milliy döletning elmentar shertliri, Aherqiy türkistandiki etnik meseliler, Uyghur millitining siyasiy qismiti we teqdiri heqqide bir-az bilimi bardek qilidu.Emma uning hemmisidin düshmenlik puraydu. Epsus chashqanni harwigha qatsa katning tegigha söreptu degendek, hedep xitaylargha paydiliq shekilde qara-qoyuq pikir qilghan we hessiy qarashlirini her türlük sepsetiler bilen perdazlap, ilim duyasini haqaretlep, xitay xahishini ilgiri sürüp, herqandaq millet etirap qilishni xalimaydighan "shalghut millet" degen chüprende namni aptumatik halda Uyghurlarning pishanisige urushqa orunghan.Mana bu Xitay tajawuzchilliri ilim dunyasigha qubul qilduralmay kelgen "Zhunghuamilliti" sepsetisi bolup, bu yazmini yazghan we özini "alim" deyishke jüret qilghan bu ademning, sap uyghur emeslikini, xitay bilen qandashliqi bolmighan teqdirdimu, Uyghur düshmenlirining qenini toshup yürgen bir adem ikenlikini bilgili bolidu.Qarmaqqa bu yazma uyghurgha paydiliqtek, dawagha mas kelidighandek bilinidu.Tarixni, siyasiy teqdirimizni tegi-tektidin chushinidighan bir adem, uni oqusa, "alla düshmen ichimizdiken emesmu" depla qalidu. Bundaq yazmilarni bu bette elan qilish, uyghur dawasigha qilinghan hörmetsizlik bolupla qalmay, Gherip dunyasida etirap qilinishqa bashlighan qarangghu yillardiki tariximiz, etnik kelip chiqishimiz, milliy kimlikkimiz we kultural alahidiliklirimiz heqqide jiddiy ketiwatqan izdinishlerge qizil chiraq yaqqanliq bolup hesaplinidu.

Men özemge natunush bolghan Turdi Ghuja ependining ilimgha siyasiy shatiraqliq bilen arlashmasliqini, Uyghur millitige arqa tereptin tigh urmasliqini, bundaq xelqarada küchlük put terep turiwatqan ilmiy qarashlargha pikir berishtin awal, Arxilogiye, Meditsina, Tarix, aterpologiye, Etnograpiye tereplerdin xitaylar we Gheripliklerning uyghurlar heqqidiki barliq tetqiqatlirini, shundaqla Uyghurlargha chong jehettin qandash kelidighan milletlerning, bizge paydisiz shekilde xitaylar teripidin burmiliwetigen tarixni tüzesh üchün qiliwatqan emgeklirini semimiy, keng-qursaqliq bilen közdin kechurup chiqishini, Uyghurni, we Uyghurshunaslarni hörmetligen halda bir nerse yezishini, eng addiysi ilim dunyasi etirap qilghan:Uyghurlarning "Türk" we "Uyghur", "Xitay"(ZHUNGXUA MILLITI), Erep degen namlar bilen bolghan perqi we baghlinishi heqqidiki nopuzluq qarashlirini hörmet qilishini, Uyghurning arisigha kiriwelip, Uyghur degen nam we Uyghurlarning shöhritige dagh keltürmeslikini, iltimas qilimimen!

Unregistered
10-09-07, 19:32
Englischini toluq chushenmigendikin bulmey turup baha bermeng. Victor Mair Uyghurlarni aryan digini yoq, eksinche Uyghur digen mongoliyedin kilip Tarim wadisidiki yerlik aryanlarni qirip tugetken yaki qoghliwetken dewatidu, Uyghurlar u mummilar ewlatliri emes shunga ularning medini-yadikarliqlirining warisliri diyishke bolmaydu dewatidu. Emdi biraz chushengendek turamsiz? Englischingizni dawamliq yahshilang. Chala molla adem olturuptu digen gep bar.



Turdi ependi doktur bolghanliki uqun uning degenlirini torghra dep bashkilarni "piziqi" din "piziqi" gha qikirip eyiplex logikidiki "nopuzga murajet kilix" (appeal to authority) hataliki bolidu. Pikirda bolupmu mana muxundak mawhom dunyadiki pikirda uni kimning kilganlikigha amas balki uni kandak kilghanlikka karax akilaniliktur. Sal igir bisik bolayli, buradarlar.

Emeliyetta Turdi ependining bu yazmisini makala diyixka bolmaydu. U yazmisida Mair ning karaxliriga raddiya biriman nurgun yangiltak wa hissiyatka mayil pikirlarni kilgan. Asli bundak qong bir temini sal toxtilip yizix kirak idi. Towanda uning yazganliriga kiskiqa karap bakayli:

"Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that his scientific judgment is compromised by his zeal about race. He is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans, particularly Germans, that he has become blind to many facts on the ground."

Uyghurlarning Ariyan irkiga tawalikini diguqilarning iqida Mair tunjisi amas, ham ahirkisimu amas. Bu uzndin biri talax tartix kiliniwatkan bir zil masila. Agar xundak bolup kalsa ham buni Tarimdin tepilgan wa tipilidigan jasatlar ispatlisa, buni nokul irkqilik diyix kirakmo? Uyghurlar Ariyan irkiga tawa bolsa nima yamni bar? Turdi apandi nima uqun buningdin xunqa urkiydikina? Huddi siz aytkandak, Mairmu ilmiy usul wa akliy hulasa yoli arkilik Uyghurlani Ariyanlarga qitiwatidu. Likin bu pakit (agar xundak diyix togra kalganda) yanila Uyghurlaning wa watinimiz xarkiy Turkistanning azaldin hitayning kolida bolup bakmiganlikini ispatlaxka dahli kilmayttigu? Uning ustiga bu hitay arhilogliri wa hokumiti ta hazirgiqa itirap kilmaywatkan bir pakit idighu? Dal hitaylar Mair watinimizdiki Uyghurlardin DNA siniki uqun algan kanni qigridin qikarmay, musadira kiliwalgan idigu? Dal hitaylar biz bilan Mairning milliti bolgan Girmanlar otturisidiki yirak “uruk tukkandarqiliktin” olgidak korkkan idigu? Amdi nima dap Mair bu baglinixni ispatliganliki uqun bu yarda ayipliniska duqar boluxi kirak?

"There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west."

Agar tarix hakikatan “tarixqi bolmigan” Turdi apandining diginidak bolsa, bizni ham ghrap ham xarkka qatkan gayat zor Yipak Yolidiki idiya almixix harikitini kandak quxinix mumkin? Toghra, mining kulikimga Uyghur bilan hitay tarixtin biri alaka kilmigan digan gap bakla hox yakidu, amma tarihta Uyghurlarning hitaylar bilan malom qaklik dairida alakida bolghanlikiga koz yumiwilix tarihka uyghunma? Siyasi kizginlik bilan ilmiy tatkikat bazida tokunixip kalidu. Bizgu bu yarda konglimizni hox ititp olturamiz, amma qing yarda tutuxsak hakningmu bir katar karaxliri bar.

Yana “contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD” deyix Turdi apadining Uyghur madaniyiti bilan xitay madaniyiti otturisida taki 19-asirgiqa hiqkandak alaka bolup bakmigan digan pikrini inkar kilidu. Bu zit pikirghu?

"Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today."

Muxu gapning ozila bizdiki irqiy trkiplarning murakkaplikini quxandurup birixka yitip axidu. Undakta bu murakkaplikning yiltizi nima? Buni “witness” kilix bilanla quxandurup bargili bolamdu? Bu bir ilmiy pozitsiya wa mitodma?


"That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point."

Man Turdi apandining bu hokmiga koxiliman. Likin ix buninglik bilanla putmaydu. Buning uqun yana talay yillar arhilogiyilik takxurux paaliyiti watinimiz xarki turkistanda ilip birilixi kirak. Xunga, biz yana Mair we yana baxka arhiloglarning takxuruxliriga mohtajmiz.

"Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers."

Buni man baxka bir yardinmu muxundak korgan. Miningqa amaliyat Turdi apandi digandin sal parklinidu. Doktur Mair bir sohbatta Tarimdiki mumya adamlirini tatkik kilip kilip anga ahirida ozining tatkikatining natijisidin kongli yirim bolghanlikini iytkan. Yani Tarimning asli ahalisining ahiri birip Ariyanlardin bolup qikkanliki uning kutmigan yiridin qikkan, qunki bundak bolganda unig karixiqa bu Yawropa irkidikilarning ozlirining kengeymiqikini dengiz yolinining iqilixidin burunla baxlanganlikini bilduridikan. Mayli nimila bolmisun, Uyghurlarning itnik tarkiwining iniklinip qikixi bizning siyasiy dawayimizdiki intayin bir nazuk wa aqkuxluk bir masila bolupla kalmastin yana putkul ottura asiyadiki Uyghurlarni oz iqiga algan halklarning axu karanggu tarihini yorutuxtiki muhim bir nohtidur.

Yigip iytkanda, man Turdi apandining oziga anqa tonuxluk bolmigan bu hildiki timilarda tihimu sogukkanlik bilan izdinixini umit kiliman.

Unregistered
10-09-07, 19:48
Englishche emes Uyghurche yezilghan nersinimu chushenmiseng yene bu yerde nime dep kapshiysen. Turdi doktur emes. uni hechkim doktur digen yeri yoq! Yazghanliring axmaqsiman nersiler. Bundaq bolishi sen Uyghurchinimu oqup texi chushenmiding. Ozeng Turdini tariqchi bolmay turup birnime yazmisun dep turup towendikidek yezish uchigha chiqqan axmaqliq. Logika digenning nime ikenligini uqqin bengwash. Towa ong bilen teturni, aq bilen qizilni periq etelmeydighan pizachilargha heyran men.


Turdi ependi doktur bolghanliki uqun uning degenlirini torghra dep bashkilarni "piziqi" din "piziqi" gha qikirip eyiplex logikidiki "nopuzga murajet kilix" (appeal to authority) hataliki bolidu.

Turdi Ghoja
10-09-07, 20:33
After reading the article with fresh eyes today, I decided to tone down some defensive wordings. I have not received any meaningful imput yet, so, here it is the version that goes out tomorrow night. You still have chance to throw in your two cents.

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Tarim Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that he is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, than finding the truth about those mummies. Basically, what he said amounts to white people showed up in the heart of Asia some four thousand years ago and spread civilization to the Asians and after three thousand years mysteriously disappeared or killed off by the ancestors of current population of the Tarim Basin. As an Uyghur from the Tarim region I want to point out in a layman’s terms a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not a part of China until 19th Century, certainly not during the lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese, even though there was limited contact with them after 138 AD through the famed Silk Road trade. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are forged by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may have passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. Then, have the people of the 11th century Kashgar moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar.

However, historical evidences support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kingdom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out (presumably by our ancestors). There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, ignoring the living ones, and leave out some crucial facts about the dead ones. For example, those mummies excavated in Tarim Basin look as diverse as today's living population of the area, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only imagine that they must have meant something in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. At least in the case of Tocharians, the Silk Road, which passed through their homeland, was in active use. Somebody would’ve taken notice if they were slaughtered or driven out.

It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. According to my limited knowledge, sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. According historical records, there were 36 kingdoms in Tarim Basin in the ancient times. For a presumably small population, it was a lot of kingdoms. I interpret it as lack of conquerors or wars among them. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them are related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy people lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

Unregistered
10-09-07, 21:13
Oh wait a minute, I am confused. Are you suggesting that the Uyghurs who lived in Kashgar around 8-11th century were different from ones who migrated from Mongolia? If the first one always lived in Tarim Basin, the second one who came from Mongolia must have been a different race that might not be Uyghurs, or at least culturally or linguistically not. That means Sultan Sutuk Boghrakhan united Turkic tribes, not exactly Uyghurs themselves in 11th century when he embraced Islam. Am I right?

Unregistered
10-09-07, 21:41
People around Kashgar were under Karahan Dynasty of which Sultan Sutuk Bughrahan was a king around 11th Century. Apparenly, they considered themselves as Turk rather than Uyghur according to Qutatqu Bilik and they were Muslims. But people in Turpan-Kumul were living under Qoju Uyghur Hanlighi and were Bhudist. They converted to Islam much later, around 15-16th century. Since Uyghur is a Turkish tribe, the linguistic and ethnic affinity of the two communities allowed to gradually mix to form a unified new identity as modern Uyghurs.
One thing is clear though, populations of Tarim Basin, at least in the western part, were turkified long before the Uyghur immigration after the 840 AD. Those caucasian mummies must have melt into those Turki populations. Indeed, people from Kashgar and Hotan generally look more cacausian than people from Turpan and Qumul. Of course, no matter how we look, we are all one Uyghur today.


Oh wait a minute, I am confused. Are you suggesting that the Uyghurs who lived in Kashgar around 8-11th century were different from ones who migrated from Mongolia? If the first one always lived in Tarim Basin, the second one who came from Mongolia must have been a different race that might not be Uyghurs, or at least culturally or linguistically not. That means Sultan Sutuk Boghrakhan united Turkic tribes, not exactly Uyghurs themselves in 11th century when he embraced Islam. Am I right?

Unregistered
10-09-07, 22:19
Yes, I knew that part of history. But I thought that the people under Karakhan and Itiqud Kingdoms belonged to the same ethnic group(by which I mean, Uyghurs), and the only difference was religion.


People around Kashgar were under Karahan Dynasty of which Sultan Sutuk Bughrahan was a king around 11th Century. Apparenly, they considered themselves as Turk rather than Uyghur according to Qutatqu Bilik and they were Muslims. But people in Turpan-Kumul were living under Qoju Uyghur Hanlighi and were Bhudist. They converted to Islam much later, around 15-16th century. Since Uyghur is a Turkish tribe, the linguistic and ethnic affinity of the two communities allowed to gradually mix to form a unified new identity as modern Uyghurs.
One thing is clear though, populations of Tarim Basin, at least in the western part, were turkified long before the Uyghur immigration after the 840 AD. Those caucasian mummies must have melt into those Turki populations. Indeed, people from Kashgar and Hotan generally look more cacausian than people from Turpan and Qumul. Of course, no matter how we look, we are all one Uyghur today.

Oghuzhan
10-09-07, 23:56
Aries, as Turdi mentioned, Uyghur tribes were mostly inhabited around turfan and urumchi(beshbaliq). People in the south were mostly called themselves Turks until Soviets reviwed and reintruduced term "Uyghur". Both Mehmut Kashgari and Yusuf hajif called citizens of karahaniler as "Turk"s. By the same time, he mentioned Uyghur as the best Turkish(turkic) tribe. So this means modern Uyghur is the mixture of Turkic tribes.
I aggree with Turdi's poinnt about the southern population. People in the kashgar did not come from mongolia, As mehmut kashgari said Turks(uyghurs) originated from Turans, he said kashgar is his ancestrorial hommeland and city of Alpertunga. He never mentions immmigration, subjugation , killing of "arian" race .

If you read the history, Huns ruled east turkistan before BC. As chinnese stated, Both gokturks and Tiele tribes were originated from east Turkistan. Iranian's mentioned their eastern neighbor Turans(our forefathers). All these facts shows that modern Uyghurs turkic ancestors were in east turkistan at least for 2000 years. so it is a lie to claim Uyghur were came to ET in 9 the century. That only shows Mr. Mairs lack of knowledge about Uyghurs.

As for the color, modern genetics are showing huns, and ancientt turks were mixed race(white and asian) people. In the oghuzname,oghuzhan's wife's eyes were described as "as blue as sky". Mongolian's described Uyghur as "colored eyed people". we do not know what original turks look like(some believe white some asian), if we say turks were asians, Turks started to mix with whites at least 2000-2500 years ago.

Modern genetics are showing Uyghurs are about half europian(white) origin, occordinng to some commercial testing, some europians has direct match with some Uyghurs. But Mair claimed there is no direct link based on several mummy dna. Maybe he is doing so that to get more samples. or chinese basicly bribed him to lie.

As an Uyghur, I support Turdi's endovour to clear this up.



Yes, I knew that part of history. But I thought that the people under Karakhan and Itiqud Kingdoms belonged to the same ethnic group(by which I mean, Uyghurs), and the only difference was religion.

Unregistered
11-09-07, 11:05
Thanks for the clarification. But I am still trying to figure out where those Southern Uyghurs came from if they didn't migrate from somewhere in Central Asia. Of course, they were not there in the beginning of human history. The history of human beings can be traced back 6 million years ago. The first human beings were found in African. After 50,000 years later, there were traces of human beings in Eurasia (which includes Central Asia), and after another 50,000 -100,000 years, human beings began to appear in Asia, Europe, Americas, and Australia. That means early human beings first of all went to Eurasia, then from there, they spread to the rest of the world. In this sense, Dr. Mair's strangers theory is completely wrong. Our ancesters didn't come from Europe, they actually went there.

oguzhan
12-09-07, 04:37
Dear Turdi,

Did you not contact Mr.Kamberi ?

After all he has been part of the archeological excavations

and once attempted to arrange the bringing of the mummies
to the states for exhibition purposes.



He once gave me excerpts from his papers on the mummies.


And also Mr.Kurban Veli would have enlightened you

since it is their domain.


By the way ,we are still trying to contact Uyghur scholars and historians

who may be a part of the prestigious biannual International Paper Historians Congress

to be held in Istanbul in 2010...


Last opportunity to promote Uyghur culture,arts and crafts and tourism was in Riyadh
Saudi Arabia at the International Seminar on Handicrafts and Toursim in Islamic Countries
in 2006.


I had contacted the head of the Uyghur Foundation in Istanbul and informed him about the importance of this international seminar for the Uyghurs,

he had boasted being one of the founding members of Rabitat ul Islam !!!!


and unfortunately the Uyghurs were not represented.....


This may show how considerate our people are ....to their own cultural heritage

despite the number of societies scattered around Europe,Turkey and the States...


take care.

oguzhan

Unregistered
12-09-07, 13:55
Nice input Mr. Ghoja! I, as an Uyghur, thank you for your endeavor for bringing this up on this forum.

A while ago, I had been occupied by this matter, and even wrote an email to Mr. Mair asking him to give an explanation for his rush conclusion, failing to receive any reply.

One thing is very clear from his interview, that he tried all his best to convince the Chinese authorities to give specimen from the mummies to do DNA testing. There was clearly a deal between the two. He could prove the Eupoidness of these mummies to connect the culture to the so called ice man found near his Austrain home land (where he was originally from), promissing the Chinese that he would disconnect the local Uyghurs from the mummies. Nice deal, both sides are happy, making the local Uyghurs the victims.

Putting this clear assumption aside, the irony about the DNA result was, according to Mair, Europoid. It is a joke for any serious genetic anthropologist. There isn't Europoid gene. There are Y chromosome (father to son), and mtdna (mother to daughter) genetic mark. Among them R1a and R1b are the main Y haplogroup among Europeans, among which R1a connected to the Qurghan culture ( probably Indoeuropean speakers) are very high among Qirghiz, Altai,as well as Uyghur etc Turkic groups. R1b was highest in Uyghurs among the central asian population. These two all together make up more than half of the Uyghur male genetic pattern. Moreover, the father genetic maker of R and Q (significant among Native Americans) is P which has the highest variety among Uyghurs and other central Asians. Conclusion is that: There was a group of people in the central asia (probably south Siberia) who scattered to the east and became Native Americans, to the west became Europeans and remained to became Turkic.

however Mr. Ghoja, you have neglected some facts of the histoy of the Uyghurs. You are assuming the Uyghurs who migrated from the Mongolia as mongoloid. Archeological findings have been prooving that the population in the southern siberia were mixed people with significant caucasoid feature.

You are neglecting the fact that Uyghurs empire in the Mongolia streched to Perghane valley, which definately included Qashqer.

You are neglecting the fact earlier Kokturk empire streched even further west, and the main people of the empire was Tura (as Uyghurs were part of it).

Finally, you are are neglecting the fact that Huns even earlier (direct ancestors of the Uyghurs) had ruled all over the Tarim region.

If we go back even earlier time period, Di became Hun (Kunler) in the north, youzhi (Aylar) in the west. They were same in culture.

That's for today. We can discuss further later.

Have a nice day.

blue wolf








After reading the article with fresh eyes today, I decided to tone down some defensive wordings. I have not received any meaningful imput yet, so, here it is the version that goes out tomorrow night. You still have chance to throw in your two cents.

Turdi
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

In an article about the Tarim Mummies, Dr. Mair said he was disappointed at the mummies being dragged into a political dispute between the Chinese and Uyghurs. After reading his comments in several articles in the past couple of years, I begin to feel the same way about his pull on the racial aspect of it. Yes, the unique ethnicity of the mummies is the subject of his research, but one get the impression that he is so eager to draw a connection between the mummies and Western Europeans that he has become blind to many facts on the ground. One get the impression that he is more interested in proving that major accomplishments claimed by the Asians were in fact brought to them by whites, not just any whites, but whites of Northern or Western European stocks, than finding the truth about those mummies. Basically, what he said amounts to white people showed up in the heart of Asia some four thousand years ago and spread civilization to the Asians and after three thousand years mysteriously disappeared or killed off by the ancestors of current population of the Tarim Basin. As an Uyghur from the Tarim region I want to point out in a layman’s terms a few flaws in his theories and hypothesis.

First of all, much of the fuss about “Caucasian mummies in China” would not be necessary without the assumption that Tarim Basin has been part of China since the ancient times just as the Chinese claims. If one drops this assumption, much of the excitement will be gone, but finding out the truth should be more important than generating popular interest. The fact is Tarim Basin was not a part of China until 19th Century, certainly not during the lifetime of those mummies. But, it has always been a part of the Central Asia geographically, culturally, and at times politically. While exchange of ideas and people between Middle East and Central Asia has a long proven history, perhaps goes as far back as the mummy people's times, contact between Central Asia and China did not happen until Zhang Qian's trip to the "Western Regions", a name used by the Chinese in the ancient times to refer to Central Asia including the Tarim Basin and beyond around 138 AD. There is a very simple explanation to that: There is no impassable geographical barrier between the former two, but there is a big stretch of desert and mountain between the Tarim Basin and China. The two civilizations, Tarim and Chinese, were separated by more than 500 miles of inhospitable desert, one of nature's biggest barriers in ancient times and today. That is why the people around the Tarim Basin today have so much in common with the people to the west in Central Asia and Middle East but almost nothing with the people to the East, the Chinese, even though there was limited contact with them after 138 AD through the famed Silk Road trade. We have different household tools, different farming tools, different food, different clothes, different music and dancing, different language and folklore, and different customs than the Chinese. But we have quite a few overlaps with our neighbors to the west. I am not a historian, but I am a scientist who can read the facts quite well. I know that any scientific theory and assumption has to be consistent with existing facts to be valid. And physical evidence does not support the assumption that Tarim Basin or East Turkistan was a part of China in ancient times. Since Central Asia including Tarim Basin was and is connected to Middle East, Caucasians in Tarim Basin should not be such a big surprise. After all, Caucasians were no strangers in the Middle East. Even today many people in Middle East and Central Asia including Afghanistan still have blue eyes, light brown hairs and fair skins even after thousands of years' of mixing of different peoples in these regions.

Second, today’s Uyghurs are not the same as the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Most ethnic groups today are the products of dynamic human history. They are forged by the interaction and mixing of several ancient ethnic groups. In other words, no major ethnic group today shares a "pure blood" with any one group lived in the past. The English has a well known mixed ancestry, so does the French, the German, the Spanish, the Chinese, the Arab and any one you name it. The Uyghurs are not exception. Our mixed heritage is clearer than any one else. If one travels from Qumul in the eastern part of East Turkistan along the Tarim Basin to Korla, Kucha, Aksu, Kashgar, Yarkent and Hotan, he can witness the mosaic of peoples, dialects and customs that form the fabrics of the Uyghur nation today. The ancient Uyghurs who lived in Orhon Valley in today’s Mongolia may have passed down the name to us, but they were only one of our ancestors. By the time the ancient Uyghurs were defeated by the Kyrgiz tribes in 840 AD and moved to the Northern and Eastern East Turkistan, Kashgar was a long established city inhabited by other peoples. When Mahmut Kashgari wrote his famous encyclopedia—“Turk Language Dictionary” two hundred years later, he wrote that his ancestors lived in Kashgar many centuries before his time. Even though the event of 840 AD was within the living memory of his time, he did not mention it. If his people moved from Mongolia to Kashgar roughly 150 years before he was born, he would known about such a dramatic historical event, because people in the area were writing, even if the oral story telling deemed unreliable, long before he was born. That means the people who lived in the 11th century Kashgar did not come from the ancient Uyghur Kingdom in Mongolia as the Chinese wants the world to believe. The fact that Mahmut Kashgari named his book “Turk Language Dictionary” not “Uyghur Language Dictionary” also proves the point. Then, have the people of the 11th century Kashgar moved away to somewhere else since then?” There is no historical evidence to that. Therefore, most Uyghurs live in Kashgar region today are not likely to be the descendents of the ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia. Based on geographical facts, the same can be assumed for people who live further south, such as Yarkend and Hotan, because if some one wants to get there from Mongolia, he must first pass Kashgar.

However, historical evidences support that ancient Uyghurs from Mongolia settled in Eastern part of East Turkistan and played important role in the Qoju Uyghur Kingdom centered in Turpan.

Third, evidences do not support Dr. Mair’s theory that those mummy peoples were either slaughtered or driven out (presumably by our ancestors). There are many Uyghurs around Tarim Basin today who have blue eyes and light brown hairs not much different from those mummies. But, Dr. Mair chose to focus on the dead ones, ignoring the living ones, and leave out some crucial facts about the dead ones. For example, those mummies excavated in Tarim Basin look as diverse as today's living population of the area, and many Caucasian mummies were buried alongside with mixed race mummies in the same graves. Some tools, clothes and techniques (bread making, for example) used by mummies are still being used by local Uyghurs today. And slaughtered people are not likely to pass down their tools and techniques. Another fact is many place names big and small around Tarim Basin do not have any meaning in Uyghur language. One can only imagine that they must have meant something in the languages of the people who first introduced these names. Those languages are gone, but their legacy survived as these names. If the people who gave these names were slaughtered or driven out, these place names would’ve gone with them. At least in the case of Tocharians, the Silk Road, which passed through their homeland, was in active use. Somebody would’ve taken notice if they were slaughtered or driven out.

It is quite possible that Tarim Basin was one of the most peaceful places in the ancient world, because its unique geography kept it safe from the power struggles of big powers. According to my limited knowledge, sword or other ancient weapons are not among the essential items buried with those mummies. According historical records, there were 36 kingdoms in Tarim Basin in the ancient times. For a presumably small population, it was a lot of kingdoms. I interpret it as lack of conquerors or wars among them. Uyghurs have one of the richest oral story traditions, but very few of them are related to wars. In fact all the wars in our known history were either between the local peoples and outsiders or caused by outsiders. Perhaps it was the peaceful good life supported by the fertile oasis around the Tarim Basin what kept the mummy people there for thousands of years. A dry desert may look harsh, but if you have water, it is the best place to farm. That is why many ancient civilizations thrived around deserts. Tarim basin had plenty of water in ancient times. These facts suggest those mummy peoples melt into the current population of Tarim Basin.

Dr. Mair said he felt sad because he felt as if he left his kin—the Cherchen Man, who he claims looks like his sleeping brother Dave, behind among strangers. He shouldn’t have felt that way because the Cherchen Man remains where he belongs-his homeland. Yes, the mummy people lived in the Tarim Basin for thousands of years as their immortalized bodies bear witness, therefore it is their homeland as much as ours. The only strangers around them are the Chinese. Let’s imagine Dr.Mair’s brother David had children from a non-white woman. Who would be more stranger to him? His brother who looks like him with his blue eyes and blond hair or his children who have black eyes and black hairs?

Unregistered
13-09-07, 18:26
Would it be "bad" if modern-day Uyghurs were descendants of the Caucasian race?

Chuck

oguzhan
13-09-07, 18:50
Dear Turdi,


We still do not know what the esteemed Uyghur scholars,archeologs and historians,
and the rest of the enlightened Uyghurs think or rather know on this topic.


You have easier access to Mr.Kamberi,Mr.Veli and Mr.Barat to name a few well known
authorities whose views we would appreciate to know,
if of course they care about what we outsiders should know.


May be Mr.Nebijan Tursun would be well equipped with a satisfactory answer.


Your request reminds one of Heinrich von Daniken (author of Chariot of the Gods )

who finds the questions but not the answers !!!


Matter of fact there is a book published on

ten enigmas of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous region

by Xinjiang Halk Nexriyati,

and mummies of Tarim are among them.




Personally I wonder if these mummies could be (held) responsible for the rock paintings ?


cordially,

oguzhan

oguzhan
13-09-07, 19:31
modern-day Uyghurs were descendants of the Caucasian race

Chuck[/QUOTE]

Magister Ludi and the Glassbead game.....

Marco from Italy was the first well known Caucasian

who fell in love with Uyghur POLO,mutton/carrot/rice dish

and nicked himself as MARCO POLO in fond memory of his visit;


European caucasians later sent Gruenwedel and Albert von le Coq,

none could rival these expert professionals who could skin the walls
of the 1000 Buddha monastries of the Silk Road

Aurel Stein,Prejawalski followed,

Sven Hedin was among them,

but Paul Pelliot was the real connaisseur !!!

he could speak and understand Chinese,
so he knew what he picked......


Better late then never,
Otoni the Jap was there....




The Uyghurs were already a member of the European Union

before it was ever established !!

we sent camels loads of our precious heritage

in custody of scholars,looters,adventurors and devils of the Silk Road

to 16 different European locations.



Which should practically enable any Uyghur to freely visit these nations,

(without much visa problems !!!!!!)

if they are thirsty for knowledge
of their past cultural contribution
to global civilization.and do some research in the European countries

where they have Uyghur cultural heritage......




Once the Mummies are clarified for what they really are,

and us Uyghurs will warm up to our new (long forgotten !!) identity..


Makes one wonder in today's world of consumerism,

who would buy this commodity ?


Actually the Caucasianism of the Mummies are irrelevant,


like the Baghdad railroad construction....

They had bribed the Ottoman Sultan with a fountain !

which is still to be seen.


The goals are (close intimacy with !) energy sources,


the chosen paths and cause stories are diverse....




Let us know whom we are fooling !

a cordial,chuckle....

oguzhan

Unregistered
13-09-07, 21:00
You again! Didn't I say early human beings first of all moved to Eurasia, which includes Central Asia, from there they spreaded to the rest of the world. That means we are ancesters, not descendants, of Europeans and Americans. In other words, you are descendants of Eurasians, dummy! :)

That means early human beings first of all went to Eurasia, then from there, they spread to the rest of the world. In this sense, Dr. Mair's strangers theory is completely wrong. Our ancesters didn't come from Europe, they actually went there.




Would it be "bad" if modern-day Uyghurs were descendants of the Caucasian race?

Chuck

Turdi Ghoja
14-09-07, 08:14
Thanks for your imput.
Yes, you are right. We do not know if East Turkistan was not part of the Ancient Uyghur Kindom based in Mongolia. I agree with your in the quoted points of you below. I still have not sent the letter yet. I'll incorporate your imputs.

Oghuzhan,
I have not contacted our scholars. The ultimate answers to this questions has to come from our scholars in the form of scientific papers at appropriate venues such as conferences or journals. This letter hopefully serves as a temperary solution until then.

Turdi


Nice input Mr. Ghoja! I, as an Uyghur, thank you for your endeavor for bringing this up on this forum.


You are neglecting the fact that Uyghurs empire in the Mongolia streched to Perghane valley, which definately included Qashqer.

You are neglecting the fact earlier Kokturk empire streched even further west, and the main people of the empire was Tura (as Uyghurs were part of it).

Finally, you are are neglecting the fact that Huns even earlier (direct ancestors of the Uyghurs) had ruled all over the Tarim region.

If we go back even earlier time period, Di became Hun (Kunler) in the north, youzhi (Aylar) in the west. They were same in culture.

That's for today. We can discuss further later.

Have a nice day.

blue wolf

Unregistered
14-09-07, 11:14
Thanks Mr. Ghoji for the reply. I hope you can find some of the following discussion worthy of pondering.

We had clear historical records during that period about the power struggle between Tang, Tibet and Uyghur empires in this region. After the defeat of Tang in Talas, Uyghur empire firmly established their control over Tarim region. Uyghur Orhun texts also confirm this. Political aspect, of course doesn't directly reflect the ethnic composition. However, after the collaps of the empire (by war, famine, plague) only a very few number of Uyghur ruling class could manage to make it to the Tarim region. Without the ethnic background which was established earlier there, it was impossible to quickly establish new kingdoms, let alone to realise linguitical domination in such a short time.

As for the non Turkic linguistical texts found there before the migration, buddist religion might be a possibility, Kushan and Aqhun rulings might be another possibility. (Although both initially spoke Turkic before their migration to the other side of the Qaraqurum.) Moreover, we know Turkic city names even Before Christ in the Tarim region testified by the Zhangqian records.

Were Turkic people only nomadic? The answer was no. Records show Huns were semi-nomadic, as the decendants of the Uyghurs. There was cultural continuity between southern siberia(including Altai mountains ), Tarim region (including Tengri mountains), Deshti Qipchaq, A geographical entity Turkic people and culture thrived.

As for the Qarahanids, Historians agree the ruling class was Yaghma Uyghurs. Yaghma was part of Uyghur confederation during Uyghur empire. Religion became the only difference between Adiz Uyghurs (based in Turpan) and Yaghma Uyghurs (based in Qashqer). Due to the fact they had fierce fightings in the name of religion, Uyghur equalled Buddist. Also Islam discouraged the Qaraxanids to use their tribal name, and they only used Turki when it came to identify the language. Same happened among the eastern Uyghurs when they gradually became Moslim and they also forgot the name Uyghur, which we picked up in the 20s of 20th century again.

Now some racial discussions (I hate to do so, but .....)

We have to keep in mind European or Caucasoid don't equal to yellow hair and blue eyes. Finnish people have the highest such ratio and they are Uralic. People from Caucas (such as Chechens) are Caucasoid (which the name itself came from) and they have black hair. it's nonsense to equal anthropology with the depigmentation, and racial classification such as Mongoloid, Caucasoid, Negroid etc is out of date now, except being refered to ethnic groups by racists or political movetivators.

Genetic results show the Mongolians (together with Tungutic Evenks etc) have predominant Y haplagroup of C, which was also predominant among Natives in the pacific ocean, including Mauri (NZ) and suggested to be originated in India and spread from the sea route to the northeasten Asia as the forestic people. Except for Qazaq (who had assimilated almost all the Mongols moved to the west), no Turkic group have significant ratio of this mark. Conclusion is Turkic people don't have direct genetic relation with Mongols or Tungustic people except for some degree of intermixing.

There can be another question as to their sharing a common linguistical line. Actually Altaic language theory is always questioned (check google). Moreover, Donghu migration chased by the Huns to the Tungustic land might influence the local forestic people linguistically. Still Turkic and Mongolic are very seperate languages.

Conclusion is the term Turko-Mongols shouldn't be used (except for the army of the Chengiz) as racial or linguistical definition. Uyghurs from Mongolia (with some intermixing with Mongolic Qitans) were not too much different from their kins in Tarim Basin. Present day Uyghurs were the direct decendants of the Central Asian people who once migrated to all over the Euroasia and the new world.

Unregistered
15-09-07, 11:12
http://uiguren.know-library.net/

Unregistered
15-09-07, 16:18
well i dont have a deep knowledge on this field....
still remember the first time i saw our flag. i was 15 back than and knew very little about who iam and what it meant to be an uyghur in todays world....the chinese writes one sort of history and the europians wright another one,so what!!!!
to me it dosnt matter anymore to know who i was or who i am, it is important to know
who i want to become....maybe someday i can write my own history