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Unregistered
11-11-05, 12:53
Hi. I've been reading this site with great interest; I'm a travel journalist who recently came back from a six week bike tour that circled the Tarim Basin. I found it to be a beautiful and fascinating place, and as we rode from village to village (our route was from Turpin, w. to Kashgar, S. to Hotan, E. to Qarkihk, and then back north to Bohu and Urumchi) I was especially enchanted and impressed by the constant welcome and friendliness we received from the local Uyghur people.

I was with a Chinese bike rider - not an official, just a bike enthusiast - and he painted a very rosy picture of Chinese-Uyghur relations (for example, Uyghars are very well represented in both the national and local governments, and that they have full freedom of religion, and that the Uyghar language is officially recognized at all levels of communication, including in civics, academia, and the news media.) I don't think he was actively propagandizing - more that, perhaps, having never been to that part of China, he simply believed what he'd been told.

The few English-speaking Uyghars I met were mostly young, trained tour guides; they were very nice and answered all my questions, and more or less communicated the same thoughts that my Chinese friends did.

I have to admit, I knew little about the Uyghars when I arrived in China, and when I came home, I noticed a few stories - including some that were linked from this site - that show a much less positive picture of Chinese-Uyghar relations.

I'd simply like some opinions on what the reality is. I have a few questions:

1) Does the average Uyghur in China feel oppressed or restricted? How would Uyghar life change, day-to-day, if those restrictions were removed? Would there be a difference in the way people feel (or would live) in cities like Kashgar and Hotan, versus some of the tiny villages I visited?

2) What do Uyghars think of Americans? As individuals? As a country? Have those opinions changed since 9/11 and the war in Iraq?

3) Has being part of China been in any way beneficial to the Uyghars?

4) Is "East Turkestan," as conceived, a place that would extend beyond the current borders of China? If so, what would it include?

5) If a Uyghar wants to thrive economically in China today, what sacrifices must he or she make in order to do so?

6) Is there a strong desire on the part of Uyghars to immigrate, and if so, where? Conversely, are Uyghars who have left their country people who have done so to escape political repression and/or economic hardship? How much contact does the expatriate Uyghar community have with their friends and relatives in China?

7) I've read that a large number of Uyghars have been executed and or jailed in China. What are the actual "offenses" (rather than the general "terrorism" charges that I've read about in Chinese media) that result in such punishments?

8) I was in Hotan during the "50th Aniversary" celebrations. Many people seemed quite happy. Were they really?

I'm sorry if these questions seem intrusive, but during my time in China, I became very interested in the reality of the country versus how the average Chinese person has been taught to believe; I just finished a quite damning biography of Chairman Mao by Jung Chang, and it struck me how thoroughly even the most "modern" Chinese are trained, it seems, to see a single, manufactured reality.

Thanks in advance for helping to answer my questions,

Dan

Uyghur
11-11-05, 18:27
Dan , I am a busy man, but let me answer some of your questions.

"1) Does the average Uyghur in China feel oppressed or restricted? How would Uyghar life change, day-to-day, if those restrictions were removed? Would there be a difference in the way people feel (or would live) in cities like Kashgar and Hotan, versus some of the tiny villages I visited?"

Yes, they are , mojority of Uyghurs are, this number can be as high as more than 95%, except few government officials and puppits . Yes there is difference. Generally, people in the cities usually are more resentful than villagers, but usually cautious, they may not tell you. They know Americans like like may listen to their stories, but can not help when they are persecuted.

"2) What do Uyghars think of Americans? As individuals? As a country? Have those opinions changed since 9/11 and the war in Iraq?"

Mojority of Uyghurs love America as a defender of freedom. This view may be tarnished a little bit after US declared ETIM as a terrorist organization . But Overall uyghurs are among the few muslims in the world who are proamerican.


3) Has being part of China been in any way beneficial to the Uyghars?

No. If you see the real history , not the "made in china" versions, Uyghurs, as the leader among turkish tribes" had splended history with great contribution to the world civilization. Occupation only brought misery and uphappiness. and millions of Uyghurs lost lives in this occupation. With the communists cultural assimilation, forced abortion, countless summary exucutions, Uyghurs slowly feeling the aim of chinese communist is to commit genocide, eventually end the Uyghur history in East Turkistan.

4) Is "East Turkestan," as conceived, a place that would extend beyond the current borders of China? If so, what would it include?

Current central asia and "Xinjiang" was called as "Turkistan since Karahanilar kingdom(10th century). but the term East Turkistan mainly refers to modern East Turkistan.

5) If a Uyghar wants to thrive economically in China today, what sacrifices must he or she make in order to do so?

Need to sacrifiice Uyghur identity , and communist gov supporter. Colloborate with communist, hep oppress his own people

6) Is there a strong desire on the part of Uyghars to immigrate, and if so, where? Conversely, are Uyghars who have left their country people who have done so to escape political repression and/or economic hardship? How much contact does the expatriate Uyghar community have with their friends and relatives in China?

Yes, mostly western countries, because of economical and personal freedom.
Not too much contact with friends, especially if you are involved political activity, that may jopordise these people.

7) I've read that a large number of Uyghars have been executed and or jailed in China. What are the actual "offenses" (rather than the general "terrorism" charges that I've read about in Chinese media) that result in such punishments?

Usually did not agree with government policies. Expressed views of independent East Turkistan, wrote articles lamanted chinese oppression, opposed govenment regulation of religion, or estublished a political party advocates freedom , democracy and independence.


b1) Does the average Uyghur in China feel oppressed or restricted? How would Uyghar life change, day-to-day, if those restrictions were removed? Would there be a difference in the way people feel (or would live) in cities like Kashgar and Hotan, versus some of the tiny villages I visited?

You can feel the oppression in everday life, a pregnent women fears her childs life, a villager forced work for free, a villager sees new chinese immmigrant occupies the land his forefathers cultivated, a villager forced to move because the oil found under his village , a writer can not write the pain of the people, you always work but new chinese immigrant always responsible for allocating the money, a person may be worried by constantly patrolling chines ary just outside his house, and person may painfully remember how his son was " commintted suicide " in the jail , an uyghur police may mourn for the young lives wasted in the jail. A chinese jail official may have to think about jails overpopulated with young political prisoners.



8) I was in Hotan during the "50th Aniversary" celebrations. Many people seemed quite happy. Were they really?

You saw people who were participating to that even, these are mostly government officials , young people educated by chinese propoganda. If you visited soviet style communist party celebrations in former soviet republics of Litva, Estonia, and East Germany. You would probably see same scene, but they were quite unhappy. People usually smile , this does not mean they are happy. Actually this is the worst form of unhappiness.



I'm sorry if these questions seem intrusive, but during my time in China, I became very interested in the reality of the country versus how the average Chinese person has been taught to believe; I just finished a quite damning biography of Chairman Mao by Jung Chang, and it struck me how thoroughly even the most "modern" Chinese are trained, it seems, to see a single, manufactured reality.

Thank you asking these quesions Dan, that means you are observing, and thinking about Uyghur people.
Take care!
and best regards

Uyghur

Thanks in advance for helping to answer my questions,

Dan
Reply With Quote
8) I was in Hotan during the "50th Aniversary" celebrations. Many people seemed quite happy. Were they really?

I'm sorry if these questions seem intrusive, but during my time in China, I became very interested in the reality of the country versus how the average Chinese person has been taught to believe; I just finished a quite damning biography of Chairman Mao by Jung Chang, and it struck me how thoroughly even the most "modern" Chinese are trained, it seems, to see a single, manufactured reality.

Thanks in advance for helping to answer my questions,

Dan
Reply With Quote

Uyghur
11-11-05, 18:30
Dan , I am a busy man, but let me answer some of your questions.

"1) Does the average Uyghur in China feel oppressed or restricted? How would Uyghar life change, day-to-day, if those restrictions were removed? Would there be a difference in the way people feel (or would live) in cities like Kashgar and Hotan, versus some of the tiny villages I visited?"

Yes, they are , mojority of Uyghurs are, this number can be as high as more than 95%, except few government officials and puppits . Yes there is difference. Generally, people in the cities usually are more resentful than villagers, but usually cautious, they may not tell you. They know Americans like like may listen to their stories, but can not help when they are persecuted.

"2) What do Uyghars think of Americans? As individuals? As a country? Have those opinions changed since 9/11 and the war in Iraq?"

Mojority of Uyghurs love America as a defender of freedom. This view may be tarnished a little bit after US declared ETIM as a terrorist organization . But Overall uyghurs are among the few muslims in the world who are proamerican.


3) Has being part of China been in any way beneficial to the Uyghars?

No. If you see the real history , not the "made in china" versions, Uyghurs, as the leader among turkish tribes" had splended history with great contribution to the world civilization. Occupation only brought misery and uphappiness. and millions of Uyghurs lost lives in this occupation. With the communists cultural assimilation, forced abortion, countless summary exucutions, Uyghurs slowly feeling the aim of chinese communist is to commit genocide, eventually end the Uyghur history in East Turkistan.

4) Is "East Turkestan," as conceived, a place that would extend beyond the current borders of China? If so, what would it include?

Current central asia and "Xinjiang" was called as "Turkistan since Karahanilar kingdom(10th century). but the term East Turkistan mainly refers to modern East Turkistan.

5) If a Uyghar wants to thrive economically in China today, what sacrifices must he or she make in order to do so?

Need to sacrifiice Uyghur identity , and communist gov supporter. Colloborate with communist, hep oppress his own people

6) Is there a strong desire on the part of Uyghars to immigrate, and if so, where? Conversely, are Uyghars who have left their country people who have done so to escape political repression and/or economic hardship? How much contact does the expatriate Uyghar community have with their friends and relatives in China?

Yes, mostly western countries, because of economical and personal freedom.
Not too much contact with friends, especially if you are involved political activity, that may jopordise these people.

7) I've read that a large number of Uyghars have been executed and or jailed in China. What are the actual "offenses" (rather than the general "terrorism" charges that I've read about in Chinese media) that result in such punishments?

Usually did not agree with government policies. Expressed views of independent East Turkistan, wrote articles lamanted chinese oppression, opposed govenment regulation of religion, or estublished a political party advocates freedom , democracy and independence.


b1) Does the average Uyghur in China feel oppressed or restricted? How would Uyghar life change, day-to-day, if those restrictions were removed? Would there be a difference in the way people feel (or would live) in cities like Kashgar and Hotan, versus some of the tiny villages I visited?

You can feel the oppression in everday life, a pregnent women fears her childs life, a villager forced work for free, a villager sees new chinese immmigrant occupies the land his forefathers cultivated, a villager forced to move because the oil found under his village , a writer can not write the pain of the people, you always work but new chinese immigrant always responsible for allocating the money, a person may be worried by constantly patrolling chines ary just outside his house, and person may painfully remember how his son was " commintted suicide " in the jail , an uyghur police may mourn for the young lives wasted in the jail. A chinese jail official may have to think about jails overpopulated with young political prisoners.



8) I was in Hotan during the "50th Aniversary" celebrations. Many people seemed quite happy. Were they really?

You saw people who were participating to that even, these are mostly government officials , young people educated by chinese propoganda. If you visited soviet style communist party celebrations in former soviet republics of Litva, Estonia, and East Germany. You would probably see same scene, but they were quite unhappy. People usually smile , this does not mean they are happy. Actually this is the worst form of unhappiness.



I'm sorry if these questions seem intrusive, but during my time in China, I became very interested in the reality of the country versus how the average Chinese person has been taught to believe; I just finished a quite damning biography of Chairman Mao by Jung Chang, and it struck me how thoroughly even the most "modern" Chinese are trained, it seems, to see a single, manufactured reality.

Thank you asking these quesions Dan, that means you are observing, and thinking about Uyghur people.
Take care!
and best regards

Uyghur

Unregistered
11-11-05, 18:39
China battles to convince terror sceptics


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Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: China battles to convince terror sceptics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/11/china_tight_wideweb__470x379,0.jpg

A giant statue of China's late chairman Mao Zedong watches over the People's Square in Kashgar.
Photo: Reuters

source: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...1578236193.html

By Hamish McDonald, Yining
November 12, 2005
Page 1 of 3

IN A freezing late-autumn drizzle a week ago, a local man showed visitors around the mosques of this small city that is hard up against the spectacular Tienshan range, literally the Mountains of Heaven, that forms China's border with Central Asia.

They ranged from a timber mosque in the Chinese pagoda style, built by troops of a Manchu emperor in the mid-18th century, to a gleaming Arabian-style edifice built a few years ago by a rich trader returned from the Middle East.

The buildings are impressive, but silent. What is missing is the buzz of classes, normal during the day between prayers, when mosques are usually full of classes in the Koran for children, and the discussions of young people.

Memet, not his real name, attends the new mosque once a week, but is unable to take his son there. Under an interpretation of China's laws on religion, the communist government of this far-flung region of China bans anyone under 18 from entering mosques, or from taking any religious instruction.

Memet is the internal enemy of China's vast security apparatus, which is trying to convince a sceptical world that China is also a victim of terrorism, like the other countries hit by al-Qaeda-linked bombings.

Once seen mostly as a desert buffer zone, useful as a place for nuclear tests, Xinjiang recently became a vital repository of oil and other resources for the booming coastal economy centred far to the east. It is also China's frontier to the wild and frightening Islamic fanaticism seen just to its west and south in the former Soviet republics, and Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Memet and the rest of Xinjiang's Uighurs, a Turkic people who have flourished for centuries in the narrow band of land between the mountains and the salty Taklimakan desert, are squeezed between these Chinese hopes and fears. Since 1990, when some Uighurs mounted an Islamic-inspired revolt near the fabled Silk Road city of Kashgar, they have faced tightening repression.

Beijing gave financial incentives for more settlers of the Han race, who form 92 per cent of China's population, to "go west". Now the Uighurs are a minority in their own land, about 8 million out of Xinjiang's 19 million people.

The settlers live in tackily modern new cities and drive along freeways in bank-financed cars and trucks, beneficiaries of the $US55 billion ($A75 billion) that Beijing has poured into development of its western provinces in the past five or six years.

Uighurs live in shabby neighbourhoods beside the new towns, or in quiet villages that are picturesque, with their mud-brick courtyard homes, avenues of poplars, pony carts, and tiny fields of cotton. The Han settlers regard them with suspicion. "We call them Taliban and al-Qaeda," a taxi-driver in the provincial capital Urumqi said.

The Uighur have not been free of the ferment in the Islamic world. Some purists, inspired by Afghanistan's Taliban, were active in Yining, Memet says. A few others went off to join the jihad across the border. But when this upsurge resulted in arrests and a protest here in February 1997, the result was a mini-Tiananmen, with at least nine killed and hundreds arrested.

There was a spate of bus bombings in Urumqi, killing nine people, but since then, little violence from the Uighurs inside Xinjiang, although two years ago there were attacks on Chinese in neighbouring Kyrgyzstan.

What has happened since 1997, say human rights monitors, has been a tightening of controls on the Uighurs, with the September 11, 2001, attacks by al-Qaeda in the United States providing Beijing with an opening to put a terrorist label on even the most peaceful types of Uighur dissent and separatist expression.

Nicolas Becquelin, Hong Kong-based research director for the respected Human Rights in China group, said that soon after 9/11, Beijing abruptly switched from playing down the extent of Uighur unrest to exaggerating it.

"The Government has now made pretty explicit what was previously covert: that the separate identity and culture of indigenous people, particularly Uighurs, is the basis, they fear, of ethno-national aspirations," Dr Becquelin said. "What is targeted through Islam is really the basic tenets of Uighur identity."

The repression of Islam is pervasive, with anyone in state or Communist Party employment or studying at colleges banned from overt displays of religious identity, such as beards, head scarves, fasting during Ramadan, or prayer during working hours. Possession of Islamic texts not printed by Government-approved presses is grounds for arrest and detention.

Religious instruction of children has disappeared. Even parents are scared to teach their own children. "As young as six or seven, they have drills at school where they have to give responses to ideological questions and tell teachers if members of family are practising Islam," Dr Becquelin said.

Police and militias recruited from Han military settlements sweep Uighur suburbs and villages, picking up people with identity card discrepancies and taking them off for questioning. The province's "re-education-through-labour" camps are full beyond capacity, prison officials recently complained. Regular prisons have an extraordinarily high proportion of their Uighur convicts, about one in 11, serving time for crimes against state security.

About 200 Uighurs have been executed since 1997 for political crimes.

Because of concerns about execution and torture, Washington refuses to return 22 Uighurs it has in the Guantanamo Bay prison on Cuba, whom it has cleared of major involvement with the Taliban or al-Qaeda.

In February, a court in Kashgar gave Uighur author Nurmemet Yasin 10 years' jail for publishing a story called The Blue Pigeon last year, about a blue pigeon captured by different-coloured pigeons and kept in a cage. As some Uighur separatists use a blue flag, China's Ministry of State Security saw the point.

There has been widespread scepticism outside China that Uighurs are a major terrorist threat.

"It's very hard to know — we can't take the Chinese authorities at their word on the situation," Dr Becquelin said.

"They have undermined their credibility by construing non-violent acts and people as terrorists."

Since the Chinese gave in to US pressure and released Uighur businesswoman Rebiya Kadeer in March, Beijing is facing renewed scrutiny.

But Dr Becquelin says Beijing's preoccupation with ethnic separatism in Xinjiang (as well as Tibet and Taiwan) may blind it to a threat of Islamist extremism in its heartland areas, such as Henan and Shanxi.

"They have the most incredibly extremist Islamic groups in China among some of the Hui congregations, and they are totally legal," he says. "They are in the mosques. They have all the jihadist, the Salafist material, and doctrines, schools with children attending, very anti-American. It's really puzzling."

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Not puzzling
11-11-05, 23:09
China battles to convince terror sceptics
"They have the most incredibly extremist Islamic groups in China among some of the Hui congregations, and they are totally legal," he says. "They are in the mosques. They have all the jihadist, the Salafist material, and doctrines, schools with children attending, very anti-American. It's really puzzling."


It is not really puzzling if you really understand the Chinese. Anti-Americanism is more than welcome, being religious is okay, but being different is not unless you are a westerner and not there for a long haul.

Unregistered
14-11-05, 12:24
for the helpful reply. I appreciate the time you took to write it.

- dan

Unregistered
14-11-05, 12:58
what do you believe anyway?

Chinese media? a few uighur or chinese tour guides? or what you saw or experience while your stay in Uighur region for merely several days?

I think there is really good articles by written BBC, Time, Newsweek, Asiaweek reporters, most of them spent SEVERAL YEARS in uighur region, integrated with uighur people before publishing their paper. some of them speak with a virtual uighur mind.

if you are really interested to find answers to your question, i recommend you do the same as above reporters before jumping into a premature conclusion.

you can read BBC, Time, Newsweek, Asiaweek reports by simply searching for Uighur (uygur or uyghur) or Xinjiang in their official websites.

Unregistered
14-07-06, 12:22
2- some of us think America is our future aid in freedom
3- beneficial are you kidding having your kids murdered your relatives arrseted, and being spitted upon is not beneficial.
4- I don't really know but if you look up the history of Mu there is something there about Uighurs.
6- where? I don't know Atush was the only home I knew in Eastern Turkistan, and we left so we could have a better education elsewhere and maybe aid our country one day
7- offenses, oh fighing of right, humanly rights, writing a book , reading a book haveing to do with Eastern Turkistan's freedom . And somethimes there is no crime expect the one done by the Chinese government.
8- probly not , and maybe yeah I mean what ele do they have to be happy about??

If you want to know what's going on in uighur lives just check the news and read some threads from this place.

Unregistered
14-07-06, 13:17
Hi Den,
If you have been there (Eastern Turkistan or Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region) as a human with logical thingking and emotion you should have felt something and you should have the answers for your questions. There are also a lot of information on the internet.
Sorry for getting a bit upset becasue since I have been living in Europe, I have been facing this kind of questions almost everyday and most of the people in Europe have no idea what apression is, They have no idea how their grandparents felt when their mother countries were occupied by Germany during second world war.
I have a few questions for you here.
1. How do you feel if you feel like you do not have rights to get an ID card of your own country( forget the passport my friend)?
2. How would you feel if your mother has to have forcefull abortion(withought any medical treatment) when she got pregnant for the 2nd or 3rd child?
3. How would you feel when people say at your face that you are an American( I assume you are an American) and we only hire Han Chinese?
4. How would you feel people label you as terrorist if you want to go to Church(assume you are not muslim)?
5. How would you feel if you get fired becasue your mother language is English not Chinese?
6. How would you feel if you have a confilict with a Hanchinese and there is chance of 99% that you are the guilty one or the separatist one?
Local Uighurs smiled at you just becasue you did not look Hanchinese and you were a guest there. If some one smiles at you at helps you, it does not mean they are lucky.
It is a stupid tradition of Uighrus to respect all the guests and invite them to the house and feed them. The next day they get the kick-out from their own house.
Please if you are really interested in Uighurs or that kind of situation, I suggest you to read a bit more about the history, culture and languages of Uighurs.
Love
me

Unregistered
14-07-06, 13:21
Sorry for spelling your name incorrectly, We do not have this kind of name among Uighurs. Probably that is why.
Good luck.

Unregistered
11-11-12, 01:10
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